Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Kishkumen
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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I find thought-provoking John Nathan's comments about Gilliam over at The Jewish Chronicle:
Theatre exists in part to convey argument. And yet this theatre is apparently in the grip of those who punish anyone who does not conform to their opinion. If artists are banned from entering its doors because of their taste in comedians, are there now plays and playwrights which The Old Vic consider unstageable because of what they say and who says them? If so, may we know who and which works are on the list? Or like the people who live in some Orwellian state such as now exists in Hong Kong, must we self-censor for fear of transgressing rules which nobody has defined, a deliberate tactic that works brilliantly in China.

Last year I was asked to add my name to complaints made to Bridge Theatre for engaging Maxine Peake in one of Alan Bennett’s Talking Heads plays. This was after the actor said Israel was somehow culpable in the murder of George Floyd. She withdrew the comments after Amnesty International denied her assertion that they had identified “neck kneeling” as an Israeli technique taught to police. It is hard to imagine a more obvious promotion of the antisemitic trope that Jews on one side of the world are responsible for bad things on the other.

But you have to refuse to take away a person’s living for saying the wrong thing because, well, it’s just inhumane. And The Old Vic should stand up for the humane.
See https://www.thejc.com/comment/opinion/c ... t-1.522173

Nathan disagrees with sentiments Gilliam has expressed in the past that were frankly pretty offensive. He notes, however, that The Old Vic offered no explanation of its cancelation. The problem with this is that it leaves everyone in the dark regarding why Gilliam was canceled. There is enough out there for it to have been one of several things, but we just don't know. So there is this chilling effect created by such ambiguity, and it must feel pretty intoxicating for those staff members to gave gotten Gilliam canceled. If this were not such a high-profile situation, I think it would be fine to let the disgruntled staff have their way no questions asked. In this situation, however, I think there is an obligation to the public to explain what is a decision with a public impact. Tell the world that you did not approve and cannot tolerate Gilliam saying X, Y, and Z.

As it is now, one gets the creeping feeling of the approach of another Cultural Revolution in which one day you are a teacher in the classroom, and the next day you are a thought criminal being dragged by your students to the town square and spat upon, ultimately to end your life in a labor camp somewhere being reeducated to believe truly in your heart that the latest assertion of the left (or right) is the unquestionable truth of reality.

Doubtless this is many years away--knock on wood--but both of the far ends of the ideological spectrum increasingly act like they would enjoy nothing more than to be empowered to go on a cleansing spree to rid the world of people who have resisted gentle efforts to persuade them, such gentle efforts as getting them fired, canceling their show, and publicly humiliating them. Why, we have seen it right here on MDB. I have seen Mormon apologists call the administrators and employers of perceived critics in order to rat them out. I have seen critics rat on apologists who dared to disagree with them.

So I'm supposed to think there is no problem, and that we should just look at all of this as just deserts that is not protected by the Constitution. I find that self-satisfied passivity in the face of a real problem almost as scary as the problem itself. "Hey, man, the Constitution doesn't protect you from mob justice of that kind, so just chill."
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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As it is now, one gets the creeping feeling of the approach of another Cultural Revolution in which one day you are a teacher in the classroom, and the next day you are a thought criminal being dragged by your students to the town square and spat upon, ultimately to end your life in a labor camp somewhere being reeducated to believe truly in your heart that the latest assertion of the left (or right) is the unquestionable truth of reality.
Was K Graham one of your students? This sounds very similar to Mao Zedong requiring public confessions before executing the politically incorrect.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Just a quick aside, I’m watching a TEDx talk by a guy who’s been explaining that he originator of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, who was a trained Freudian psychologist and feeling frustrated by the lack of progress in his patients went back to the Greek philosophers, namely Epictetus, to develop a new approach to psychoanalysis. Born out of that was CBT, which has shown some promise (we have a friend who went through some pretty intensive therapy through the VA and she says she greatly benefited from it).

The more I kind of muse over the ramifications of academia demoting a classical education the more I’m concerned. Heck, I’ve read quite a bit of Marcus Aurelius that sharpened up my existentialism and that translated into a very pragmatic and practical way I treated my work and my relationship with my family.

Anyway. There it is.

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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Uh, how did we get from the theater and the producer of the play mutually agreeing that the play would not be produced at the theater to thugs dragging teachers out of classrooms to reeducation camps?

I see where Gilliam has gone to the press, but it isn’t his show. He’s a co-director. Neither party to the mutual agreement has spoken out. Perhaps that was part of their agreement.

Private parties decide to abandon projects and go their separate their ways all the time for all sorts of reasons. None of us knows why the production company agreed to walk away from its contract with the Old Vic rather than insist the Old Vic comply with its obligation to provide its facilities for the production.

Has this not been a point in time in which “woke mob” hadn’t been promoted as the bogeyman du jour, and the director a celebrity, I doubt we’d even be talking about this. There must be tens of thousands of decisions made every year by people you never even think about that affect which books get published, television shows Get aired, movies get released, and plays get performed. And any of those decisions can be arbitrary as hell, for any reason you can imagine, and you’d never know about it.

This is how business works. And theater production is a business. People and organizations get to make decisions for whatever reasons they choose, within certain legal boundaries. And their not obligated to tell me or anyone else why.

You don’t like the reason a business makes a decision, you join a different wake mob to pressure the business in question. Or boycott the business. Or send the business a letter expressing your displeasure. Or howl at the moon on an obscure message board. But if you think this decision signals the the arrival of an authoritarian apocalypse as opposed to business as usual, I’d suggest thinking a little more about context.
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Seriously? If this so mundane and no big deal, funny that one party expresses a great deal of unhappiness about it and puts the lie to the anodyne press release. I’m sure every time a politician retires to “spend more time with his family,” we should just take them at their word, regardless of evidence to the contrary.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:15 pm
Seriously? If this so mundane and no big deal, funny that one party expresses a great deal of unhappiness about it and puts the lie to the anodyne press release. I’m sure every time a politician retires to “spend more time with his family,” we should just take them at their word, regardless of evidence to the contrary.
I think you're confusing who the "party" actually is. The "parties" are the old Vic and the production company. Is there a statement from the production company? Gilliam didn't have a deal with the old Vic. He has a deal with the production company.

People are very unhappy about things that happen in business relationships all the time. They just aren't celebrities with a public platform they can shout from.
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:21 pm

I think you're confusing who the "party" actually is. The "parties" are the old Vic and the production company. Is there a statement from the production company? Gilliam didn't have a deal with the old Vic. He has a deal with the production company.

People are very unhappy about things that happen in business relationships all the time. They just aren't celebrities with a public platform they can shout from.
Um, I was referring to Gilliam who is, after all, a party to the deal, no? I do not agree that the expression of partisan rancor through business is a bloodless or apolitical enterprise. We’ve left that time far behind. No, both extremes use “just business” in their ideological warfare, and then retreat to the excuse that it’s “just business.” That does not make the partisan rancor evaporate.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:32 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:21 pm

I think you're confusing who the "party" actually is. The "parties" are the old Vic and the production company. Is there a statement from the production company? Gilliam didn't have a deal with the old Vic. He has a deal with the production company.

People are very unhappy about things that happen in business relationships all the time. They just aren't celebrities with a public platform they can shout from.
Um, I was referring to Gilliam who is, after all, a party to the deal, no? I do not agree that the expression of partisan rancor through business is a bloodless or apolitical enterprise. We’ve left that time far behind. No, both extremes use “just business” in their ideological warfare, and then retreat to the excuse that it’s “just business.” That does not make the partisan rancor evaporate.
No, the parties to the deal are the Old Vic and this guy's company:
Former artistic director of the English National Opera John Berry, whose production company Scenario Two is co-producing the show, said: “We are focusing on finding a new home for this show … These things happen, it’s not the first change of plan for a West End show, or the last, and current times everywhere are unpredictable.”

Scenario Two, Berry added, retains the rights for Into The Woods with Gilliam directing.

Last week, the Old Vic posted a brief statement on its website announcing that it and Scenario Two had “mutually agreed” that Into the Woods would no longer take place at the Old Vic. “The Old Vic wishes the show well for its future life,” the statement said, adding that ticket holders would be contacted directly.
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/ ... am-remarks

The parties to the deal are Section Two and The Vic. Both of the parties – The Vic and Section Two, made short, non-incendiary statements about their "mutual agreement." It's not even clear that Gilliam was in the room when the agreement was reached. Who fanned the flames recently? Gilliam. And because he's a celebrity, he has a platform and a megaphone.

This went down six weeks ago, and there was some reporting from behind the scenes:
Complaints about former Monty Python star Gilliam, who has described the #metoo movement as “a witch-hunt”, were raised by staff in April and the 80-year-old was told he had to apologise for his comments if the show was to go ahead, the Standard understands,

But before an apology could be agreed, Gilliam is said to have further offended staff when he used his Facebook account to tell his almost half-a-million followers to watch Chapelle’s new Netflix show.

...

One supporter of the theatre said the decision was prompted by its failures during the leadership of Hollywood star Kevin Spacey who was later accused of inappropriate behaviour by 19 people connected to his time as artistic director.

They said: “In the wake of the Spacey scandal it signed up to a pretty rigorous code of conduct and it either sticks to that and lives by that or there really is no point having it.”

A statement on the theatre’s website said “discriminatory remarks, attitudes or behaviour – racist, homophobic, sexist etc – towards any group or characteristic at The Old Vic are not acceptable”.

It goes on to warn that “visiting performers or artists” are responsible for their “behaviour and actions” and will be held “accountable for how we speak or act”.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sear ... 63886.html

So, after staff complaints about inappropriate conduct by Kevin Spacey, The Vic adopts a code of conduct that applies to visiting artists and which was discussed with both co-directors. There was an agreement that Gilliam would issue an apology for past statements. But before that's worked out, Gilliam just happens to publicly praise Chapelle. You think that wasn't motivated by "political rancor?" That it wasn't a middle finger to the Vic and it's code of conduct?

Why isn't the headline here "Cranky old man flips Vic the bird, gets shown the door?" Maybe because "woke mob" is a story that sells these days?

Why do you think "partisan rancor" hasn't been a part of business for your entire life? Business consists of millions of people making decisions every day that can and are based on anything, including partisan rancor. You just don't get to see it. You get to see it now because outrage sells, and "woke mob" is a great outrage generator. I mean, you went from famous celebrity has to direct a musical at a different theater straight to OMG!@!@!! It's Communist China all over again !!!!!! It's working, right?
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:40 pm
Why do you think "partisan rancor" hasn't been a part of business for your entire life? Business consists of millions of people making decisions every day that can and are based on anything, including partisan rancor. You just don't get to see it. You get to see it now because outrage sells, and "woke mob" is a great outrage generator. I mean, you went from famous celebrity has to direct a musical at a different theater straight to OMG!@!@!! It's Communist China all over again !!!!!! It's working, right?
Oh, stop exaggerating for the purposes of straw-man distortion. No one said it was Communist China all over again. Good grief. I get that business types are generally happy so long as regulations are minimal and everyone who has money makes a lot more money. Hell, so long as they make profits, who really cares what “The Old Vic 12” were agitating about or what Gilliam said in return? If everyone who has money makes money, no harm, no foul.

That’s just not my measuring stick for how well things are working or what our first priorities should be. The way I see it, a group of people bravely postured behind the scenes to eject Gilliam because they had to put up with the truly abusive Spacey for so long. Gilliam was an easy sacrificial goat for Spacey’s sins. The former is a crotchety old dude with a prickly personality. The latter is a sexual predator.

Loudmouths like Gilliam tend to take hits and I am not surprised few feel sorry for him. That’s his personality. But I really don’t believe there is anything in this that is just or wise except in a business sense. And increasingly I am unimpressed with the way business tends to Trump everything.

I have a Republican friend who used to work for one of the big investment firms that went out of business in 2008. I once brought up Trump to him and it was fascinating to watch him minimize the whole thing. He didn’t take Trump seriously at all, even after January 6. I kinda got the feeling that with enough guys like him, we could slide into a whole new form of government and they might not really care as long as they keep making bank. Hell, they might not even realize it.

Maybe the business guys wanted to keep this quiet, but once “The Old Vic 12” decided they needed to teach Gilliam a lesson, it was a sure thing that there would be publicity, and TOV12 knew it too.

And, honestly, I read what Gilliam said about Chapelle. What he said was true. Chapelle is a comic genius, regardless of what many people think about the offensiveness of “Closer.” If that was what sealed his fate at The Old Vic, then that is pretty weak sauce. The fact that this is what sets people into attack mode is bizarre, regardless of how smooth and congenial the business side was. It can’t paper over the conflict behind the scenes, and what that conflict says about the serious division that exists.

Anyhow, thank you for the correction on the business side. I am truly relieved (ahem) that everyone will continue to make many dollars including those doughty heroes among The Old Vic 12 and that superstar juggernaut Terry Gilliam. We can ignore the partisan rancor because it has always been there and it never gets dangerous, and if anyone raises the specter of evil and repressive regimes, we’ll just laugh because that can’t happen here, even many years from now.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Lying Away Cancel Culture

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:37 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:40 pm
Why do you think "partisan rancor" hasn't been a part of business for your entire life? Business consists of millions of people making decisions every day that can and are based on anything, including partisan rancor. You just don't get to see it. You get to see it now because outrage sells, and "woke mob" is a great outrage generator. I mean, you went from famous celebrity has to direct a musical at a different theater straight to OMG!@!@!! It's Communist China all over again !!!!!! It's working, right?
Oh, stop exaggerating for the purposes of straw-man distortion. No one said it was Communist China all over again. Good grief. I get that business types are generally happy so long as regulations are minimal and everyone who has money makes a lot more money. Hell, so long as they make profits, who really cares what “The Old Vic 12” were agitating about or what Gilliam said in return? If everyone who has money makes money, no harm, no foul.

That’s just not my measuring stick for how well things are working or what our first priorities should be. The way I see it, a group of people bravely postured behind the scenes to eject Gilliam because they had to put up with the truly abusive Spacey for so long. Gilliam was an easy sacrificial goat for Spacey’s sins. The former is a crotchety old dude with a prickly personality. The latter is a sexual predator.

Loudmouths like Gilliam tend to take hits and I am not surprised few feel sorry for him. That’s his personality. But I really don’t believe there is anything in this that is just or wise except in a business sense. And increasingly I am unimpressed with the way business tends to Trump everything.

I have a Republican friend who used to work for one of the big investment firms that went out of business in 2008. I once brought up Trump to him and it was fascinating to watch him minimize the whole thing. He didn’t take Trump seriously at all, even after January 6. I kinda got the feeling that with enough guys like him, we could slide into a whole new form of government and they might not really care as long as they keep making bank. Hell, they might not even realize it.

Maybe the business guys wanted to keep this quiet, but once “The Old Vic 12” decided they needed to teach Gilliam a lesson, it was a sure thing that there would be publicity, and TOV12 knew it too.

And, honestly, I read what Gilliam said about Chapelle. What he said was true. Chapelle is a comic genius, regardless of what many people think about the offensiveness of “Closer.” If that was what sealed his fate at The Old Vic, then that is pretty weak sauce. The fact that this is what sets people into attack mode is bizarre, regardless of how smooth and congenial the business side was. It can’t paper over the conflict behind the scenes, and what that conflict says about the serious division that exists.

Anyhow, thank you for the correction on the business side. I am truly relieved (ahem) that everyone will continue to make many dollars including those doughty heroes among The Old Vic 12 and that superstar juggernaut Terry Gilliam. We can ignore the partisan rancor because it has always been there and it never gets dangerous, and if anyone raises the specter of evil and repressive regimes, we’ll just laugh because that can’t happen here, even many years from now.
Wasn’t this you upthread?
As it is now, one gets the creeping feeling of the approach of another Cultural Revolution in which one day you are a teacher in the classroom, and the next day you are a thought criminal being dragged by your students to the town square and spat upon, ultimately to end your life in a labor camp somewhere being reeducated to believe truly in your heart that the latest assertion of the left (or right) is the unquestionable truth of reality.
Didn’t the Cultural Revolution happen in Communist China? Not really a straw man when it’s an accurate description of your own hyperbole.

I’m not saying that making money is a moral justification for anyone’s behavior. I’m saying that you’re taking something that is perfectly ordinary — people acting in accordance with their personal biases when they engage in business transactions and treating it as a harbinger of doom.

There is a world of difference between somebody who thinks he got screwed in a business deal and Trump being President. The people involved with the old Vic have control over exactly one theater. Trump was in charge of the executive branch of the federal government, including the military and nuclear weapons. One is a private transaction and the other is an authoritarian who wields the coercive power of the state. The two situations aren’t comparable.

I have real concerns about the illiberal left. Shouting down voices so that they cannot be heard shouldn’t happen anywhere, and especially not at a college or university. I worry that students are being shielded from ideas they should be encouraged to grapple with. A law professor shouldn’t be subjected to discipline for including a realistic scenario in an exam that offends students. And I really worry about the substitution of associate and assistant professors for full, tenured professors on faculties. I want your academic folks to be able to speak and write without fear of losing your jobs. That, to me, is important.

Maybe it’s because I tend to see folks at their worst, but I just can’t get excited over Gilliam. Even if he got screwed over in this deal, I’ve seen so many folks get screwed over in business deals in much worse ways. Unlike Gilliam, they aren’t famous celebrities with a platform and megaphone. So they don’t get public attention — unless a law or contract has been broken, they just get screwed. Terry’s a big boy. He can take care of himself and he’ll be just fine.
he/him
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holding each other’s hands.


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