God Creation

[canpakes]

Hey canpakes,

I noticed that you posted two quotes (one by Marjorie Taylor-Greene) on this thread. If you have time, could you put up oh maybe 4 of that type of religion based quote for me to reply to? It's okay if you'd rather not or don't have time to spare. I'd really like to take a crack at that kind of thing.

Hmm. I’m not exactly sure what you may be wanting as regards subject or content, but I’ll look around.

These two quotes lit up my radar screen more for the fact that they seem to be in such obvious conflict with the intent of the Founding Fathers, as opposed to referring to Christianity/‘the Church’ specifically.

[canpakes]

But I can do that without dehumanizing my fellow humans who are people of faith. <snip>

Right? Our survival depends on collaboration. …

Yes, you’re exactly right. Although, I believe that the rules for social order distilled down through thousands of years of early society, via lessons learned that would keep us from doing too many stupid things to each other… as opposed to being a set of rules that was suddenly produced on a stone tablet that a man later brought down from a mountaintop, some few thousand years BC.

Ironically, we’ve taken those guidelines for collaboration, and sometimes ditched them in order to kill off each other … because we were more concerned about preserving our particular origin story for those rules, rather than the actual rules themselves.

[Jersey Girl]

Could I have faced life on life's terms without God? Sure maybe. But that's not how it worked with me in my mind. I am not, by nature, a weak person. I don't know a single person who knows me in real life who would say that about me. The two traits that people say first about me are that I am kind and that I am strong. I believe that God allowed me to experience things in my life that led me to develop those qualities. So...yes, I can face life on life's terms. I believe that I have learned genuine and life philosophies and ways of being, practical ways of approaching what I face on life's terms, that have made me develop courage and often times confidence, that helps me live my life regardless of what is thrown at me.

I’d guess that folks on Schmo’s side of the fence would ask you why you don’t accept that you achieved that level of personal strength via your own faculties, and not because you prayed, and were supposedly otherwise ‘helped’ by God in some mysterious and unexplained way.

I've very used to interacting with folks on Schmo's side of the fence as you call it. I've engaged that exact topic to the tune of thousands of posts though not on this board. I didn't say that I achieved a level of personal strength because I prayed and I made no mention of God helping me in mysterious or unexplained ways. I said that I think that I developed into the person that I am on account of experiences in my life and I believe that God allowed those to happen in my life, not because I prayed.

I don't want to mix up what I think and what I believe, because those are two very distinct aspects. Does that make sense. What I think is based on empirical tangible evidence. What I believe is based on the subjective and how I view it.

I understand that POV; I’d lean towards that question myself. But I’m also aware that the human spirit sometimes seems strengthened and able to do more than what it consciously decides its limits are, if it believes that it has support from something or someone else. So, many people of faith utilize prayer as a way to realize the abilities that they may not otherwise be aware of.

I agree with all of the above. A number of folks feel empowered by a belief in a higher power. I don't exactly see it that way in terms of my own self.

It’s probably a bad analogy, but when I was just learning to ride a bicycle and still heavily dependent - in my mind - on its training wheels, my father surreptitiously removed them one morning (much like - I’d imagine - just about everyone else’s parents do at some point when trying to get their child to ride unassisted). Later that day, I hopped on that bicycle and rode away, not having a care or difficulty in the world. I didn’t know that the training wheels weren’t there until 10 minutes into my ride, but I had believed that they were, and that allowed me to do something that I never thought possible before that moment.

When I relate that to what I believe to be true about God, I don't see it that way at all. I've gone through many a situation over the decades of my life where I've not thought about God at all in the process and done quite nicely on my own. I kind of go by the old adage, God helps those who help themselves. In other words, if you are equipped with a set of tools, you're not helpless. You are meant to use them.

[Jersey Girl]

Right? Our survival depends on collaboration. …

Yes, you’re exactly right. Although, I believe that the rules for social order distilled down through thousands of years of early society, via lessons learned that would keep us from doing too many stupid things to each other… as opposed to being a set of rules that was suddenly produced on a stone tablet that a man later brought down from a mountaintop, some few thousand years BC.

I think that the wisdom (or truths?) in lessons learned through the trial and error outcomes, and the stone tablets are the same thing.

Ironically, we’ve taken those guidelines for collaboration, and sometimes ditched them in order to kill off each other … because we were more concerned about preserving our particular origin story for those rules, rather than the actual rules themselves.

Yep! That second quote I noticed you posted (I forget who that was) about how God should lead the country and the founding fathers. I wanted to reply with "Well, after you're done with your Bible devotions, would you like to crack open a history book"?

[Jersey Girl]

That was an unhinged bigoted tirade.

Oh, I'm hinged. I have never thought so clearly on this subject.

You weren't thinking. You were reacting.

If it doesn't apply to you, why do you seem so upset? If it's so crazy, why not just let it go? I didn't strike a nerve or something, did I? I couldn't have, since it was so "unhinged."

Let what go? I almost never let go bigoted remarks. I recently criticized a bigoted and racist remark posted by Ajax and as I recall you thanked me for that. Do you recall that? If it's in front of my face, I almost always address it. The only nerve you struck was that you lumped all religious folks (without specification) into a pile and attacked them. So far as I am concerned, you put me in that pile. Thus the objection from me.

If you are posting on a board like this, I assume you expect that people will read what you post. If I read what you post and I object to it, don't you expect me to say so?

I never get upset at criticisms unless I think they're at least partially true. Why can't you just laugh off the crazy contrarian?

I wasn't reading a post by a crazy contrarian. I was reading a post worthy of Ajax if only he had the ability to put the same level of energy behind it. I don't see you laughing off my objections. Does that mean that you think they are partially true and possibly valid?

You can save the rest of what you wrote. I know exactly who he was targeting.

Do you? Please, enlighten the class.

You were targeting the self proclaimed Christians who use their professed beliefs ( and mangle both the Bible and the U.S. Constitution) to forward political agendas particularly those agendas that undermine human rights as outlined in the constitution and who are likely beholden to organizations like the NRA and such as that, or trying to ingratiate themselves to folks like Trump because they are psychologically deficient and enamored of him on account of the fact that he (via his own acted out deficiencies) gives them permission to act out their deficiencies instead of fulfilling their constitutional duties as per their oath of office...and their supporters.

If I am wrong, then please explain your precise position. If I am right, then you would have done better had you specified just exactly what group you were attacking instead of going off like a bottle rocket spewing venom at all of Christianity and religious folks in toto instead of the individuals you were reacting to.

[Jersey Girl]

Hey canpakes,

I noticed that you posted two quotes (one by Marjorie Taylor-Greene) on this thread. If you have time, could you put up oh maybe 4 of that type of religion based quote for me to reply to? It's okay if you'd rather not or don't have time to spare. I'd really like to take a crack at that kind of thing.

Hmm. I’m not exactly sure what you may be wanting as regards subject or content, but I’ll look around.

These two quotes lit up my radar screen more for the fact that they seem to be in such obvious conflict with the intent of the Founding Fathers, as opposed to referring to Christianity/‘the Church’ specifically.

Yep. Those were the ones. Not to worry. It's not so important.

[Jersey Girl]

I guarantee you who SS is talking about is the crazy politician, the tv personality, the dumb as crap co-worker, or idiot neighbor who shoehorns a discussion about Jesus and the Demonrats into a topic #not all xians. However, so what if he was? Coping with existential issues by believing in a Jewish Buddha God-Zombie is what it is. It’s patently absurd.

- Doc

Cool. Show me where in that particular post, he specified that that was who he was talking about.

[Gunnar]

Holy cow!! I would.

That reminds me of one of my favorite Mormon jokes. A Mormon Bishop, a Jewish Rabbi and a Catholic Priest who were members of the same country club and mutual friends got into a friendly argument about who had the most faithful and loyal parishioners. The Mormon bishop bet that he could get his members to worship him as a holy cow. They went out together to visit, in turn, their most loyal parishioners. When the priest and rabbi's most loyal parishioners answered the knock on the door, they each demanded "I'm a holy cow, kneel and worship me! They both only got the door slammed in their faces. When it was the Mormon Bishop's turn, the member who answered the door immediately said, exasperatedly, "Holy cow! What do you want this time?"

[Gunnar]

Marjorie Taylor Greene Got KICKED OUT of Church Yesterday
It's nice to know and somewhat comforting that we still have religious leaders who are both admirable and inspiring, and who understand the dangers of merging religion and the state with each other.

An Oregon minister slammed Rep. Greene for pushing Christian Nationalism in her political comments.

Rev. Chuck Currie called Christian Nationalism a "racist ideology incompatible with Christianity."

"Beware false teachers like Greene. She dances with the Devil," Currie tweeted.

Currie also said:

Jesus was for all the world, not one nation.

At least equally wise and profound are the comments of Rev. Dr. Barbara Brown Taylor, who said:

"Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion - which is always a deadly mix.

Beware of those who claim to know the will of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform.

Beware those who cannot tell God's will from their own.

[Some Schmo]

You weren't thinking. You were reacting.

Agree to disagree.

I never get upset at criticisms unless I think they're at least partially true. Why can't you just laugh off the crazy contrarian?

I wasn't reading a post by a crazy contrarian. I was reading a post worthy of Ajax if only he had the ability to put the same level of energy behind it. I don't see you laughing off my objections. Does that mean that you think they are partially true and possibly valid?

I will admit that what I've said could be interpreted as bigotry if you aren't reading for nuance. That's what I've addressed.

I will also admit that you lose a bit of credibility when you compare my posts to what ajax writes. I don't have an agenda in which I'm trying to shoehorn facts. I don't lie in lieu of an argument. If what I wrote sounds like ajax to you, I'm not sure what to think of your reading skills.

You were targeting the self proclaimed Christians who use their professed beliefs ( and mangle both the Bible and the U.S. Constitution) to forward political agendas particularly those agendas that undermine human rights as outlined in the constitution and who are likely beholden to organizations like the NRA and such as that, or trying to ingratiate themselves to folks like Trump because they are psychologically deficient and enamored of him on account of the fact that he (via his own acted out deficiencies) gives them permission to act out their deficiencies instead of fulfilling their constitutional duties as per their oath of office...and their supporters.

If I am wrong, then please explain your precise position. If I am right, then you would have done better had you specified just exactly what group you were attacking instead of going off like a bottle rocket spewing venom at all of Christianity and religious folks in toto instead of the individuals you were reacting to.

So you did know exactly who I was targeting. Good. It seemed I wrote enough to make that clear. Not sure (since you knew exactly who I was talking about) why you would object.

Here, I'll write it again so you have no doubt who I'm talking about: I am highly critical of the people who believe their religion so much that they want to force it on everyone else. I am directly attacking their process, which is to construct a god in their own image and use that as leverage to control others.

Now, does that description apply to you?

I've said it too many times to count: I have no problem with your version of god if you don't use it to attempt influencing others. If your god helps you personally in some way, all the better.

And by the way, I expect respectable people of faith to fight back against their fellow theists who break this rule (separation of church and state), just like women expect good men to help in their fight for equality.