Israel

[ajax18]

Why did the Jews need to be "given an ancestral homeland" in the first place?

Ok, no from Veritas that the Jews had no right to their ancestral homeland. I already knew that though. I'm interested in what Steuss believes or any other left leaning Jews. Most Jews that I know are conservative, but I know they're a minority opinion in the Jewish community.

[Gadianton]

Hmmmm.

Indeed. The whole situation is a failure of conservativism. Hamas is what conservatives become when they're poor and Netanyahu is what they become when wealthy. I've seen many criticisms of Netanyahu pretty close to what you quoted from former PM to citizens.

I also watched an interview with a Hamas spokesman. He must have ties to Breitbart. He couldn't answer any question directly, the answer to everything was something like, "What about 1948?" "What about...?" "We're just doing what..."

Hamas gets slightly more credit than American MAGA Republicans in terms of their justifications in that 1948 etc. really happened whereas MAGA "what abouts" are just stuff they made up that didn't actually happen.

[Gadianton]

I thought a driving reason for a Jewish homeland was persecution in Europe, or if not original reason became the main driving factor.

[Vēritās]

Why did the Jews need to be "given an ancestral homeland" in the first place?

Ok, no from Veritas that the Jews had no right to their ancestral homeland. I already knew that though. I'm interested in what Steuss believes or any other left leaning Jews. Most Jews that I know are conservative, but I know they're a minority opinion in the Jewish community.

OK, that's an "I don't know nor do I give a crap" from Ajax. The guy who likes to ask questions but never answers any.

Why do you think "Jews have a right to" anything and why do you call it "their ancestral homeland"?

I'll go ahead and say the quiet part out loud, which you're too embarrassed to say. It is because the invisible man in the sky said so in a book written 4,00 years ago. Or at least, that's the interpretation of that book from whatever religious source you ascribe to.

[Vēritās]

I thought a driving reason for a Jewish homeland was persecution in Europe, or if not original reason became the main driving factor.

If Jews were black Ajax would be against a homeland and calling it "white guilt."

[Res Ipsa]

No one is to blame for Hamas' attack, but those within Hamas that planned and/or carried out the attack.

What's your view on Palestinians who voted for the current Hamas regime? Do they bear any responsibility for the actions of their chosen leaders?

Do you believe that Israel has an apartheid state in place that has forced millions of Palestinians into living in squalor and that Israeli bigotry is reponsible for this? Would it have been better that the Jews were never given an ancestral homeland at all?

The last election in Gaza was 17 years ago. In 2006, Hamas was the equivalent of the MAGA movement. They ran on an anti-corruption platform, i.e., drain the swamp, against the incumbent Fatah party (descended from the PLO). The Palestinian Authority has an unusual structure -- a combination of a parliamentary system and the U.S. system. There is a parliament, the PLC, with its head being the Prime Minister. But the President is elected separately, and can fire the prime minister and call for elections.

Hamas had boycotted the presidential elections in 2005, so the President was from the Fatah party. Hamas did not boycott the 2006 PLC election. The general expectation is that Fatah would win the most seats. For that reason, the U.S. under GWB pushed to hold the elections as scheduled.

Israel took actions that arguably cost Fatah the election. They arrested hundreds of Hamas candidates and even some members of the PLC. Hamas's name for its slate of candidate was Change and Reform. Israel's actions fed accusations that Fatah had become a puppet of the Israeli government.

Hamas won the most seats in what all agreed was a free and fair election. However, the exit polls showed that the main reason was "drain the swam." In exit polls and polls taken after the election, the overwhelming majority of Palestinians wanted Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist and were in favor of a two-state solution. In other words, in no way was Hamas's victory an endorsement of terrorism.

So, after the election, Fatah controlled the executive branch and Hamas the legislative. A strong majority of Palestinians also wanted to two parties to form a unity government. But the two groups fought each other violently. The U.S. planned and financed a coup against Hamas that would put Fatah in control of the entire government. But before the coup was executed, Hamas planned its own coup and beat Fatah to the punch in Gaza. Although there have been several PA elections since, they have not included Gaza. Hamas took control by force in 2007 and has never permitted an election since.

So, I'd say your talking point is irrelevant BS. The people in Gaza haven't been able to vote for leaders in 17 years, let alone vote on whether to attack Israel.

As for your other questions, it is this kind of over simplistic, black and white thinking that has perpetuated the mess in the middle east for decades. We don't get a do over on creating a Jewish nation, all the past wars and military skirmishes, the effect of British colonialism, etc. You want to play blame games? Should we go back to Jewish terrorism in and illegal immigration into British Palestine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_in ... rnal_links

Peace in the middle east is going to require functional nations that are able and willing to engage in diplomatic solutions. Failed states like Palestine aren't able. The blame game is a major impediment to what needs to be done to make things better.

[Doctor Steuss]

Why did the Jews need to be "given an ancestral homeland" in the first place?

Ok, no from Veritas that the Jews had no right to their ancestral homeland. I already knew that though. I'm interested in what Steuss believes or any other left leaning Jews. Most Jews that I know are conservative, but I know they're a minority opinion in the Jewish community.

I'll try to come back to give you my opinion. Right now, kind of burnt out on it, and somewhat trying to disconnect for the ole internet. I have a lot of friends who are Jewish, and a lot of friends who are Middle Eastern, and watching their collective trauma and outrage as they process events is a bit overwhelming for my innards and my brain.

That said, I don't want you overvaluing my opinion, or thinking it's in any way representative. I don't know to what extent I can be considered a "left leaning Jew." Not that in many ways I do lean left on social/political things, but my maternal line (which is Jewish and Druze) in my family has been Mormon since Joseph Smith was alive. They were converted in England, and migrated over to the US in the early overseas missions. Even amongst extended family, I am probably the only one who has reconnected with our Jewish heritage, and studies Rabbinic writings, joined a temple, tries to be kosher (to a modest extent), etc. I think the dominant part of me will always be a southern Utah Mormon. It's how I was raised, and is likely a key component of my identity.

Also, I don't "look" Jewish. I have a few Uncles and cousins where the Middle Eastern Jewish DNA (Trademark, Copywrite, Etc.) is crazy dominant. But, I look Nordic/Scottish as all get-out. Ironically, while my appearance has spared me from direct antisemitism, it has made people comfortable at times expressing their own in assuming I must share their views (I'm 6'0", 270 lbs, with a shaved head, and long reddish/brown beard).

[ajax18]

Ok, no from Veritas that the Jews had no right to their ancestral homeland. I already knew that though. I'm interested in what Steuss believes or any other left leaning Jews. Most Jews that I know are conservative, but I know they're a minority opinion in the Jewish community.

I'll try to come back to give you my opinion. Right now, kind of burnt out on it, and somewhat trying to disconnect for the ole internet. I have a lot of friends who are Jewish, and a lot of friends who are Middle Eastern, and watching their collective trauma and outrage as they process events is a bit overwhelming for my innards and my brain.

That said, I don't want you overvaluing my opinion, or thinking it's in any way representative. I don't know to what extent I can be considered a "left leaning Jew." Not that in many ways I do lean left on social/political things, but my maternal line (which is Jewish and Druze) in my family has been Mormon since Joseph Smith was alive. They were converted in England, and migrated over to the US in the early overseas missions. Even amongst extended family, I am probably the only one who has reconnected with our Jewish heritage, and studies Rabbinic writings, joined a temple, tries to be kosher (to a modest extent), etc. I think the dominant part of me will always be a southern Utah Mormon. It's how I was raised, and is likely a key component of my identity.

Also, I don't "look" Jewish. I have a few Uncles and cousins where the Middle Eastern Jewish DNA (Trademark, Copywrite, Etc.) is crazy dominant. But, I look Nordic/Scottish as all get-out. Ironically, while my appearance has spared me from direct antisemitism, it has made people comfortable at times expressing their own in assuming I must share their views (I'm 6'0", 270 lbs, with a shaved head, and long reddish/brown beard).

Have you ever thought of braiding your beard like the Vikings did. I never could grow a beard and I never lost my Celtic brown hair. I'm still 70% Germanic, 30% Celtic.

[Doctor Steuss]

Have you ever thought of braiding your beard like the Vikings did. I never could grow a beard and I never lost my Celtic brown hair. I'm still 70% Germanic, 30% Celtic.

My ex-wife braided it a few times just to mess around. It's about 17 inches long. I can't really braid it myself (intention tremors, arthritis, and sausage fingers don't tend to make for a good combination for fine motor skill tasks). We put rune beads in it once, but by the time I woke up the next day, half of them were gone. I toss around at night like a beached salmon hopped up on meth.

One of my brothers can't grow a beard for the life of him, but has a full head of dark brown hair. The other brother is losing his hair a little (blondish-red), and can grow an ok beard. Then there's me... been going bald since I was 18, and my face is part sasquatch. Genetics are weird.

[¥akaSteelhead]

Jews have some inherent right to their ancestral homeland?


Ok, then native Americans do too, right?