Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

[ajax18]

If the vaccine is effective, and everyone has had the chance to get it, why should my kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse the vaccine? Those on the right who refuse the vaccine aren't demanding others mask up to protect them. Does the left really give two bits about people on the right who refused the vaccine? No, they don't and perhaps they shouldn't. For sure it's not about these folks. So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

[Themis]

There was a study done a few years before COVID showing that N-95 masks in hospitals are no more effective than surgical masks (in regard to the wearer getting the flu), which probably means that they aren't much more effective than no mask. People should avoid other people as much as possible, even with a mask.

However, another good pre-COVID study in Japan showed that mask wearing had a significant effect in preventing flu transmission among students, whereas hand-washing had no effect. My best guess is that along with distancing measures, 100% compliance, and larger spaces, there is effectiveness if a very small percentage of the group are carriers. How does that work across tens of thousands of schools, some of which have kids packed like sardines? I'm not putting my money on it, but...

It has to do with viral load circulating in the air. Masks are effective in preventing transmission in most indoor areas people find themselves in outside their homes. When the viral loads get to a certain point masks become unable to stop exposure. Viral loads, especially with the delta variant, tend get get high enough close to an infected person that masks will start to lose effectiveness. Best mitigation measures are good filtration systems, like on planes that can keep removing the virus to maintain a lower viral load around an infected person, infected people wearing masks which significantly lowers the amount of virus in the air, distance to avoid a high viral load area, limiting number of people gathering in the same area, etc.

[Lem]

If the vaccine is effective, and everyone has had the chance to get it, why should my kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse the vaccine? Those on the right who refuse the vaccine aren't demanding others mask up to protect them. Does the left really give two bits about people on the right who refused the vaccine? No, they don't and perhaps they shouldn't. For sure it's not about these folks. So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

I don't normally read your posts but i was curious after the recent threads about moderation.

I find your comment here puzzling. I assume people make an effort to be good humanitarians and think long term when they make decisions about things like the above. Maybe i'm getting only a partial view of your position, but your statememt about people on "the left" not caring about people "on the right" as justification for whether to wear a mask or not is inhumane. Defining as "control freaks" any people who are trying to determine best practices, particularly if they have a political responsibility, is equally absurd.

[Themis]

It's posts like this that make it hard for me to take you seriously as a medical professional.

Ajax is not a medical professional. I believe he has a two year program that allows him to practice optometry in his state. He has very little medical training or scientific training.

[Lem]

It's posts like this that make it hard for me to take you seriously as a medical professional.

Ajax is not a medical professional. I believe he has a two year program that allows him to practice optometry in his state. He has very little medical training or scientific training.

That makes much more sense.

[Res Ipsa]

If the vaccine is effective, and everyone has had the chance to get it, why should my kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse the vaccine? Those on the right who refuse the vaccine aren't demanding others mask up to protect them. Does the left really give two bits about people on the right who refused the vaccine? No, they don't and perhaps they shouldn't. For sure it's not about these folks. So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

Vaccine and mask refusal are based on political view unrelated to the medical evidence. So, (vaccine refusal) * (mask refusal) = (political stupidity)2

Public health isn't a political issue. Or at least it wasn't until fairly recently. The fact that you insist in making a political issue out of disease prevention illustrates the problem perfectly. I believe you've said you live in Louisiana right now, if I remember correctly. Over the last week, your state has the dubious distinction of having the highest rate of new cases, highest rate of new deaths, highest rate of COVID-19 ICU occupancy, and second highest rate of COVID-19 hospitalization in the country. Your ICU's are stuffed to the gills, including your pediatric ICUs. And you have one of the lowest rates of vaccination in the U.S.

And it would be tragic, but just at some level, if the consequences fell only on the vaccine and mask refusers. But they don't. You know the old saying about "your right to swing your fist ends at my face?" Well, mask refusers are punching their fellow humans in the face. Vaccine refusers are punching their fellow humans in the face. And in that situation, it is perfectly appropriate for the public authorities to step in and stop the punching. The constitution is not a suicide pact. And it's certainly not a murder pact.

The notion that accepting mask mandates as necessary to protect public health has zero to do with wanting to control behavior. That's a paranoid delusion. Absent the pandemic, I wouldn't care whether people wore masks. Why would I? When the consequences of the behavior fall only on the person engaging in the behavior, I don't care.


But, children under 12 cannot be vaccinated and have no legal ability to consent to having an infected person sneeze towards them. The vaccines are not (and have never been represented as) 100% effective, and none of us know for certain whether it will be be effective for us or not. And the evidence is indicating that the vaccines are less effective against Delta. And there are people with certain health conditions that, through no fault of their own, cannot be vaccinated. Vaccine and mask refusers have no right to punch these people in the face, significantly raising their odds of sickness, death, or permanent lung, heart and kidney damage without their consent.

But perhaps the most important justification for vaccine and mask mandates is the capacity of the health care system. There is simply not a bunch of excess slack in the system. We've already seen how quickly our health care system can be completely overrun with COVID-19 patients, especially ICUs and ERs. That hurts everybody, regardless of their political affiliation. That hurts, and even kills, people who don't even have COVID-19. And you have no right, political or moral, to cause that kind of harm to others. Public health emergencies break the existing systems because there aren't incentives in place to have enough capacity in place 24/7/365 to deal with them. So, even if we are all going to get COVID-19 some day, avoiding unnecessary sickness and death requires us to keep the rate of transmission low enough avoid breaking our health care system. And there is pretty good evidence that wearing masks indoors slows down that rate of transmission.

We're talking about the basics of what it takes to live in a society. The hospital overrun situation is a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons. A million people, acting solely in their rational self interest, can result in them all dying. They can suffer the ultimate loss of freedom simply because they shut their eyes to the effect of their actions on their neighbors.

So, if you want to pretend that your actions have no effect on anyone, move to an isolated home that isn't connected to sewer or public water, grow your own food, and use only the roads you personally build. Otherwise, take on the responsibilities of living in a society.

[Jersey Girl]

If the vaccine is effective, and everyone has had the chance to get it, why should my kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse the vaccine? Those on the right who refuse the vaccine aren't demanding others mask up to protect them. Does the left really give two bits about people on the right who refused the vaccine? No, they don't and perhaps they shouldn't. For sure it's not about these folks. So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

Hmmm....why should your kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse vaccine?

Lemme think about that. Wait. I'm starting to get something here. A thought is starting to emerge. Hang on. Almost there.

Oh yeah.

Because not everyone who remains unvaccinated refused it.

[canpakes]

So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

Would you wear a firearm, if not required, to protect yourself or others, “just in case”?

Why not a mask?

[Gadianton]

If the vaccine is effective, and everyone has had the chance to get it, why should my kids have to wear a mask to protect those who refuse the vaccine? Those on the right who refuse the vaccine aren't demanding others mask up to protect them. Does the left really give two bits about people on the right who refused the vaccine? No, they don't and perhaps they shouldn't. For sure it's not about these folks. So why the mask mandate? Why? Is it really just these people are a bunch of control freaks?

A weird but interesting line of argument. As it turns out, you believe the virus is real, you believe the vaccine works and has helped a lot of people, you seem to believe that most people not vaccinated are your fellow right-wingers (which is not totally true; they might be 99% responsible for the misinformation that holds others back, though). You know that the typical right-winger isn't making their case on your near hair-splitting objection that natural immunity is superior to acquired immunity for people who have already had Covid. You know when they say the media has done nothing but lie, they mean that the virus isn't real, or that the vaccine contains a microchip, or that the vaccine doesn't work. See your new comrade on this board for that last argument. Your disagreements with your fellow right-wingers are far greater than your disagreements with the left, when it comes to the facts about the virus. Yet, your attitude is that in their delusional state, rather that try to convince them to take the vaccine, instead, you'd rather dispense with masks and all other protocols and let your brothers and sisters die because they had their choice.

Let me ask you this, if a patient of yours -- a fellow right-wing, white patient -- were to tell you that they'd heard that a good portion of people get their eyes burned out from LASIK surgery, would you just go along with it and pretend you believe them when you don't? Would your attitude be that they've made your decision, or why is it your business if they refuse? Or would you at least make an attempt to show them actual facts about LASIK surgery?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ajax, read Gad’s last paragraph.