Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Water Dog wrote:RI, you gotta stop messing with DT's emotions like this.

This is why the backdrop of Mormonism should be useful for a discussion like this. The matter with this paper is every bit the same as Word Print Studies or whatever latest the Claremont crowd has come up with. DT has it in his head that this paper is gospel until proven false. Yeah, that's not how this works. You've got it backwards, buddy. That paper isn't even worth the PDF file it's distributed on. It is nothing but noise in a room full of chatter. I do not dismiss the paper, I simply have no reason whatever to pay it any heed.


Of course the paper is not gospel truth! But neither is Lindzen or Landsea. You told me "Here is Chris Landsea, the foremost expert on hurricanes in the world" days after telling me "These authority battles get us nowhere." LOL

So tell me, according to the paper how is the warming slowing down the speed of the hurricanes? In your own words explain the methodological flaws of Kossin's study?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:This is typical denier schtick right down to the last sentence. There is no reason not to treat this new paper the same as science treats any new paper: Dog hasn't actually identified any methodological flaws: he's just thrown up a bunch of smoke. He can't identify those flaws because he hasn't even read the paper. But Dog can't muzzle his inner denier: he has to invent excuses to ignore the paper. That's what science deniers do with science: they invent excuses not to consider it.


Exactly!
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Water Dog wrote: One, he doesn't even understand what the paper actually says because it does in fact acknowledge that original point being made by Lindzen et al.


I honestly think it is you that doesn't understand the paper. But that is okay, I understand it is not easy to read a research paper. Lindzen or Landsea never said jack **** about the speed of the hurricanes. I honestly don't understand why you quoted Landsea, but it is funny because you said days before "These authority battles get us nowhere." LOL
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:The latter part of what you are asking for is the Working Group 1 section of the IPCC AR 5 report. As for the former, do you think it's reasonable for scientists to drop what they're doing and draft a response every time a contrarian makes a youtube? There have been lots of responses to Lindzen's schtick over the years. You can find them using the Google if you're interested.


That's not what I asked for in response to Chap's comment. Telling someone to "go read a report" is smug, doesn't serve the conversation, and is dissimulating in an effort to not actually participate.

- Doc


It’s not smug to point someone to the information they asked for. Jesus, hundreds of scientists assemble a state of climate science report every few years — which is the information you asked for. It includes summaries as well.

I’ve also pointed you to the best reference I know of that explains how and why climate scientists got to where they are now. I’m sorry that the questions you’re asking can’t be answered in a meme or two, but it hardly makes sense for me to cut and paste from a document you can read yourself.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Chap
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Chap »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Chap wrote:That would be helpful in deciding whether they have any real capacity for forming independent judgements on the questions being discussed, as opposed to just reposting stuff from their favourite websites and shouting loudly about it.


You can just say you lack the ability and desire to communicate with plebians.

- Doc


Nope. That would be untrue. I am always happy to talk to people who are not knowledgable about science, so long as they don't come to the conversation with the idea that they know it all already. In fact explaining science in non-technical terms is one of the things I have spent quite a lot of time doing, partly because it is worthwhile, and partly because it is an interesting challenge.

And what's this 'plebeian' stuff? Why are you trying to import a social class angle into the discussion? Oh, wait, I forgot: it reassures you think I am some kind of upper-class chinless wonder, à la Bertie Wooster? Nah, working class all the way, mate. I just happened to get an education, and a very good one too. And it didn't cost me or my parents a penny: great days ...

Oh, and

Res Ipsa wrote:It’s not smug to point someone to the information they asked for.


Of course. But DrC is only trolling, right?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:What does he rely on? Go look at his posts in the IPCC report thread. Political cartoons, dishonest graphs, single studies, cherry picked contrarian "experts," blogs published by retired engineers, some random guy's tweet. Now, go look at who else uses this type of anti-science attack: Young earth creationists, anti-vaxxers, moon landing hoaxers, the tobacco lobby, anti-GMO crusaders. The tactics are identical.

And to properly use his analogy, he's the guy pushing the word print studies. He's the guy ignoring the extensive body of evidence. He's acting as apologist for a cluster of quasi-religious ideas that he clings to so tightly he won't even consider contrary evidence. What are those quasi-religious beliefs?


You keep making excellent points! You rock Res Ipsa!
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Doc, the report I referred you to even has a FAQ. http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/docs/ ... _FINAL.pdf

Is that more of what you had in mind?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:It's easy to tell who the science denier is: he's the guy who refuses to look at the evidence as presented in the scientific literature. Dog knows how to find it.


Right! But he is too busy reading stupid ______!
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I could barely comprehend this article, as my dimly lit neolithic prefrontal cortex processes information so slowly, but I wanted to add to the discussion (as a nod to WD's military affiliation):

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/retired ... l-1.552180

The former head of oceanography and meteorology for the Navy argued for more funding for research to understand the impact of climate change while delivering the keynote speech at a science symposium at the University of Rhode Island on Tuesday.

"It's not just science at stake. It's our survival," Rear Adm. (Ret.) Jonathan White said to hundreds of people at the event at the Graduate School of Oceanography campus in Narragansett.

White is president and CEO of the Consortium for Ocean Leadership, a Washington, D.C.-based group that advocates for ocean research, education and policy. His name was mentioned last year in connection with the top position at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, but President Donald Trump instead nominated Accuweather CEO Barry Myers.

Standing in front of images of the destruction wrought last week by Hurricane Michael at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., and flooding around Naval Station Norfolk, Va., he said that climate change is a threat to coastal military installations and, in a larger sense, to national security overall.

"Our military, the more and more they have to deal with infrastructure and the effects of climate change, whether it's helping others or trying to get in and out of our bases, the less ready they are going to be to go on missions ... all over the world," he said.

It was a point that was also raised by U.S. Rep. James R. Langevin, who has pushed for an assessment of the military's vulnerabilities to climate change.

"The dangers to national security are real and we must support the researchers who improve our understanding of the threat and ways to mitigate it," he said.

The symposium's focus was not just on security issues but on the effects of sea-level rise, more powerful storms and increased rainfall on coastal communities in general.

The event came the week after the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change warned that the impacts of climate change are now expected to be more dire than previously thought. The report predicts major droughts, coastal flooding and other effects by 2040 if greenhouse gas emissions continue at the current rate.

"We only have 10 to 20 years to solve this now," said John King, a professor of geological oceanography at URI. "And transformational change is what we need."

White described potential impacts on drinking water, food supplies and ocean health caused by increased runoff and by harmful algae blooms. The key to understanding them all is science, but the projections and models need to be improved to reduce uncertainty and spur action, he argued.

"We have to keep investing in it because the answers and uncertainty are not where they need to be," he said. "The investments in ocean science are critical."


Here's a quck rundown of his background:

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navy ... ?bioID=545

He's member of this board:

https://climateandsecurity.org/advisory-board/

And CEO of this consortium:

https://oceanleadership.org/

Bottom line is he's a firm believer in key anthropogenic drivers of climate change being the primary reasons behind global warming (really climate change and global warming are just interchangeable).

So, the question is, how do we communicate "key anthropogenic drivers of climate change" in a way to rally support from the masses, and what does that actually mean in practical terms? How are our lives altered, for better or for worse, in a day to day existence, by trying to reverse our impact on the earth that results in it cooling, if that's even possible?

When people of import suggest we're past the point of no return, which I've read a handful of times, or that we only have x-amount of time to solve this thing they fail to consistently and concretely tell us:

1) What exactly is going to happen that will kill off our species and here's the science that proves it.

2) What can we do exactly to prevent the doomsday scenario, and here's the science that proves it.

3) Here is how our lives will change, why we will actually have better lives if we change this or that, and here is the science and political policies whereby we achieve this.

or

4) Climate change is unavoidable, and here's how we can adapt to it in order to sustain our lifestyle/quality of life. Here's the science behind it and here are the political policies we can implement to ensure humankind continues to prosper.

The sense I get is we all know global warming is occurring, but there's really no sort of understanding or consensus that is being effectively discussed in a manner that's accessible to people who're buys living their lives on a day to day basis. Trusting the government to fix anything that won't have a desultory effect on your average Joe is, well, a very faithful position to have. And the fact of the matter is politicians really aren't our best, brightest, most competent, or otherwise preferred people to be in a position to understand and direct us on this issue. They just believe, too. And that's a problem when you're talking economics.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Chap
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Chap »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:So, the question is, how do we communicate "key anthropogenic drivers of climate change" in a way to rally support from the masses, and what does that actually mean in practical terms? How are our lives altered, for better or for worse, in a day to day existence, by trying to reverse our impact on the earth that results in it cooling, if that's even possible?


I am a great admirer of the military mindset: people with leadership training in the armed forces are accustomed to thinking in concrete and contextualised terms, along the lines:

1. What is our situation?
2. What to we wish to do?
3. What means are at our disposal?
4. So what are we going to do with what we have to get where we want to be, and how exactly?

DrC's approach is, in my view, the right way to go about facing up to our situation and the challenges it poses to the human race.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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