History of Music

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Jersey Girl
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Re: History of Music

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:37 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:03 am
DT you wanted to know how early rock influenced American culture. That's a difficult question to answer. Elvis, for example, paved the way for many a Black artist's already conceived music. He took the music already penned by Little Richard and jettisoned it into mainstream music.
Jersey Girl, I would like to know your opinion

How did rock and roll influence dance and how much of the appeal of rock music to youth was the expression of sexual energy on the dance floors? And if this genuinely changed peoples attitudes towards sex? Or if parents may have been overreacting to it who just forgot what it meant to be young? Was the generation who listened to Elvis more willing to drop sexual inhibitions? Less class conscious since rock arose out of the influence of so many different musical forms?

Thank you in advance.
Dance? At your service! Since you mentioned Elvis, I'm going to stick with the 50's. I lived with a teenager during that era who taught me to dance to her music by watching American Bandstand after school through part of the 50's. ;-)

1. a. How did rock and roll influence dance

Back in those times, schools held dances in the gymnasiums of the building. The kids had to remove their shoes to dance on the gym floor...and sock hops were born. Prior to that, I don't know if there were any similar dances except for the dance halls in the 40's I heard about.

New dances were birthed from all over the country and modified in different parts of the country when the dances emerged. The dances were created to match the music, though the reverse could be possible as well.

Couples dancing was still a thing, a carry over from the 40's I think. What was in the 40's the Jitterbug or Lindy, came to be called the Jive and a modified version called The Bop. Every bit of couples dancing (The Jive, Bop, Stroll*, Cha Cha, trying to think of more...) involved TOUCHING. Touching driven by the powerful beat of Rock n' Roll. It was still acceptable and common for girls and boys, and girls and girls to dance with each other in the 50's.

*The Stroll is a line dance. Typically couples would go down the line together but it wasn't entirely unheard of for one person to Stroll down the line alone--and show off!

Note on the 60's: Couples dancing still existed (ex: slow dancing mostly) but fast dances such as The Twist, Hully Gully, Watusi, The Slop, The Chickenback, The Fly, The Swim, Mashed Potatoes, etc. were done individuals in couples form or single dancers, but no touching really involved. Latin influences also entered the dance scene in the 60's. I think you named the Bossa nova in one of your earlier posts? And Motown flew in from Detroit and added it's own influences to dance. The California Sound of the Beach Boys and others emerged in this decade. The Beatles and other UK bands invaded as well. The protest and folk songs of the era required no dance really at all, for the purpose of that music was to send messages or continue American heritage songs.

It's interesting to note, I think, that each decade bridged the next decade. So that the singles dancing may have began in the latter part of one decade, then emerged as prominent in the next.

1. b. and how much of the appeal of rock music to youth was the expression of sexual energy on the dance floors?

Based on my observations...ALL of the appeal was sexual. Every single little last bit of it. Probably because the music was marketed to hormonal teens as it was in previous eras.

1. c. And if this genuinely changed peoples attitudes towards sex?

I don't really know since I wasn't a teen then but I know what I saw going on around me. I do know that car sex was a thing, condoms were the birth control method of choice if used at all, and when teen girls got pregnant they dropped out of school because there was shame attached to teen sex in those days as there was shame attached to even divorce.

A note on the 60's: I would say that the latter 60's is when attitudes towards sex changed in terms of people adopting freer lifestyles (think Hippies) , First Wave Feminism, and I don't know for a fact, but I think The Pill may have been developed in the latter 60's making sex thought of as less risky?

2. Or if parents may have been overreacting to it who just forgot what it meant to be young?

I think that parents always overreacted . ;-) I think the thing is, is that each decade of teens and popular music pushed yet another boundary, thus making the music of each period seem strange and vulgar to the generation before it.

3. Was the generation who listened to Elvis more willing to drop sexual inhibitions?

I think that within the context of their generation of peers, they were just as willing to drop sexual inhibitions as the teens of every generation before them.

4. Less class conscious since rock arose out of the influence of so many different musical forms?

NO!

with regard to to race as a class, segregation was still a thing in the 50's and straight through to at least the latter part of the 60's, and even after segregation was dropped...it still existed in subversive forms. Caucasian and Black couples who lived openly were nearly unheard of in the 50's and 60's. This social bias is why say, Elvis', recordings got more air play than the original recordings of Blacks. In the 50's the races didn't 'mix', at least not publicly.

with regard to to social class, there were still lines drawn in schools so far as I could tell, cliques between students, based on perceived social statuses. I'm not sure if that's what you were asking, though.

I'm sure I'll think of more and other things I should have included here. I'm doing this off the top of my head in real time. I didn't prepare the reply in advance or anything. I just sort of turned on the music, got on the floor, and danced. :lol:

DT if any part of you is interested in viewing dance styles on youtube, make sure that you are looking at old folks doing them or clips directly from those eras. That's really the only way you're going to observe the authentic dances.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:00 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: History of Music

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Jersey girl , I think you have a bunch of interesting good observations. I am thinking of a different thought about the question. I think youth is full of a lot of intense energy and it certainly is not just sexual energy. Not to disparage that energy but I think it is a part of a whole spectrum of enthusiasm, hopes, fears, desires,frustrations, angers, vanities all of which got expression in popular music, rock, rock and roll, etc

But you are certainly correct to notice that the time of rock and roll did not invent a human interest in sex. (or an adolesent concern)
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Re: History of Music

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huck I think your comments contribute much to the conversation here. I think that there was rebellion in the 50's for sure.

You know what I forgot about? The splatter platters. Do you recall those? :lol:

ETA: Oh look! Splatter platters have their own wiki! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_tragedy_song
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Re: History of Music

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Jersey Girl,
I was thinking there is all sorts of teen angst. The term spatter platters is new to me but the idea is not, Teen Angel comes to mind. I think this specific type of song wen out of style mid sixties. Maybe I am forgetting.
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Re: History of Music

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 am
Jersey Girl,
I was thinking there is all sorts of teen angst. The term spatter platters is new to me but the idea is not, Teen Angel comes to mind. I think this specific type of song wen out of style mid sixties. Maybe I am forgetting.
You're not forgetting. Remember I was commenting mainly on the 50's but provided some follow up commentary on the 60's. Teen Angel, Dead Man's Curve, Last Kiss, etc. were all splatter platters.
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Re: History of Music

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:03 am
People always talk about the guitar playing on the record (the original) but it is clear that the bass and drummer are making big crucial contributions.
This comment made me think of John Densmore (drummer for The Doors). He was in many ways a jazz drummer. Incidentally, one of his big influences was also a golden age drummer, Elvis Jones (who drummed for Coltrane). He was a fan of Art Blakey too.
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Re: History of Music

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:45 am
huck I think your comments contribute much to the conversation here. I think that there was rebellion in the 50's for sure.

You know what I forgot about? The splatter platters. Do you recall those? :lol:

ETA: Oh look! Splatter platters have their own wiki! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_tragedy_song
True Story: One night I was a little high and started thinking about two songs: Leader of the Pack by the Angels and Society's Child by Janis Ian.

Leader of the Pack is about a girl who can't see her boyfriend because her dad said find someone new, and she had to tell her Jimmy they were through. I've always thought there was something a little pervy about Jimmy sitting on his motorcycle in front of a candy store trying to pick up girls, but as Dr. Spaceman says, the 60's were different times. Jimmy gets pissed, storms off on his bike, drops it, and I would bet dollars to donuts Jimmy wasn't wearing a helmet, with tragic consequences.

Sociologically speaking Society's Child is from the other side of town. Leader of the Pack sounded like Beehive Hairdos from Brooklyn. Society's Child sounded like a Bryn Mawr beret wearing art student. At least we knew the motorcycle dude was named Jimmy, but Society's Child has no name, he is called boy.

BUT THE STRUCTURE OF BOTH SONGS IS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL. It drove me crazy. I finally figured it out: they were both produced by Shadow Morton, whose also produced Vanilla Fudge. Just think of those three: The Angels, Janis Ian, and Vanilla Fudge. That dude covered a lot of ground.

Anyway, you could argue Janis Ian deserves an honorary mention on Splatter Platters.
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Re: History of Music

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:21 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:03 am
People always talk about the guitar playing on the record (the original) but it is clear that the bass and drummer are making big crucial contributions.
This comment made me think of John Densmore (drummer for The Doors). He was in many ways a jazz drummer. Incidentally, one of his big influences was also a golden age drummer, Elvis Jones (who drummed for Coltrane). He was a fan of Art Blakey too.
Speaking of splatter platters here is an obnoxious thought. Jim made the whole Doors project into a splatter platter.

Well I have had different or a variety of thoughts about the Doors. In 1967 I thought they were the most dynamic and interesting new music to hear. By the second album I heard from others and thought the phrase myself, caution, caution, Morrison and the Doors are on a death trip.

Well it was also revolutionary and for at least a while I could hear The End as theatrical portrayal of American having lost its soul. I am not now able to unhear a theme of self destruction. These two meld together of course making the thing so appropriate for the movie Apocalypse Now.(doesn't a cow get cut in half or is that an illusion?)

But the music had a dynamism that is coming from all the members of the group. Doctor Steuss you make a pretty relevant point about jazz interest by the drummer. I am guilty of taking drummers for granted in my mind sometimes. Yesterday, focusing on drums, I listened to Break on Through and a couple of other Doors songs then a few CCR songs. Creedence drumming is simpler clear and pleasantly melds with the song It sticks with doing its job. The Door's drumming is propulsive and richer, break on through to the other side.
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Re: History of Music

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huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:33 pm
I am guilty of taking drummers for granted in my mind sometimes.
I think we all are. The rhythm section, down there in the foundation, is easy to "lose."

One of the most fun drummers I've ever played with was a classically trained pianist who taught himself to play the drums because he wanted to be in a punk band with some friends.

I didn't really get it at the time, but now, when I hear projects he's worked on, I can almost always pick out the little riffs and stuff that he does that aren't really commonplace in rock/alternative/punk. I don't think he has ever had to use a click track either.

The universe must have been listening in on us, because this morning a snippet from an interview with Dave Grohl popped up in my feed. He talked about how a lot of the iconic drumming from Nirvana was taken straight from disco. One of the examples he gave was the intro to Teen Spirit, and how it was swiped straight from the Gap Band. Now, I can't unhear it.
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Re: History of Music

Post by huckelberry »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:15 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:45 am
huck I think your comments contribute much to the conversation here. I think that there was rebellion in the 50's for sure.

You know what I forgot about? The splatter platters. Do you recall those? :lol:

ETA: Oh look! Splatter platters have their own wiki! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_tragedy_song
True Story: One night I was a little high and started thinking about two songs: Leader of the Pack by the Angels and Society's Child by Janis Ian.

Leader of the Pack is about a girl who can't see her boyfriend because her dad said find someone new, and she had to tell her Jimmy they were through. I've always thought there was something a little pervy about Jimmy sitting on his motorcycle in front of a candy store trying to pick up girls, but as Dr. Spaceman says, the 60's were different times. Jimmy gets pissed, storms off on his bike, drops it, and I would bet dollars to donuts Jimmy wasn't wearing a helmet, with tragic consequences.

Sociologically speaking Society's Child is from the other side of town. Leader of the Pack sounded like Beehive Hairdos from Brooklyn. Society's Child sounded like a Bryn Mawr beret wearing art student. At least we knew the motorcycle dude was named Jimmy, but Society's Child has no name, he is called boy.

BUT THE STRUCTURE OF BOTH SONGS IS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL. It drove me crazy. I finally figured it out: they were both produced by Shadow Morton, whose also produced Vanilla Fudge. Just think of those three: The Angels, Janis Ian, and Vanilla Fudge. That dude covered a lot of ground.

Anyway, you could argue Janis Ian deserves an honorary mention on Splatter Platters.
MeDotOrg, you have some interesting observations here. Perhaps just an aside, I never imagined the leader of the pack was an age inappropriate guy. I thought he was just another high school student. However I had never seen the video you present with the goofy older guy on a motor bike playing a very unconvincing leader of the pack.

Think slender dark haired 17 year old with a duck tail well greased.
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