Tarski's Ouija Thread

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_Tarski
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Tarski's Ouija Thread

Post by _Tarski »

The Ouija Board and other things that have a "mind of their own".

The goal of not influencing something that one is nevertheless in a direct contol of, is impossible to achieve perfectly.
The ouija board provides and interesting test case of the consequences of this.

Instructions:
Your fingertips lightly touch the edge of the planchette. Your friend does the same on the opposite side. You consciously move the planchette in circles around the board to get it “warmed up.” Then you ask your question. No response at first. Then slowly the planchette begins to move, seemingly on its own – at least you’re not trying to move it. Let it go. Sliding from one letter to the next, the planchette spells out its answer. And it seems to fit. More questions are asked, and with increasing speed the Ouija provides its responses, letter by letter. Seemingly with significance. Sometimes with dark significance.


So with both or all parties are trying to just let the board spell out what it will, something nevertheless happens.

Why? Well, given that one cannot actually achieve perfectly zero force, the goal of "letting" gets translated subconsciously into "not resisting" and not resisting can only be achieved in this unstable situation if one is unconsciously helping in minute ways.

Now we can see that if there is the slightest prejudice for a certain thing that both or all parties might think of, then effects accumulate and it feels to both parties as if the board is spelling something out on its own.

But what happens when a person does not accept supernatural explanations?
Well, then that person will be convinced that the other person guided the board. If both persons have this attitude then both will think the other one was dishonestly trying to push in certain directions.
This could turn out to be an embarrassing situation if something shocking or untoward was spelled out.
What really happened is that each person was making micromovements; sometimes guiding, sometimes letting and occasionally resisting (but the instruction was to "let").

But, on the above analysis, neither person was consciously guiding the board. Yet both are now convinced that the other one was pushing for an outcome.

Now what about similar effects in social situations? What if two or three people are present in an ambiguous situation and are either in group control of events themselves or in group control of an account of the ambiguous situation??

Examples:

1. Several people were simulatenous witnesses of a traffic accident and are in a room trying to recount to police what happened. People start unconsciously looking to other members to fill in gaps in their own perception and a group story is constructed.

2. Same as above except that now instead of an accident it was a UFO sighting (or angels, fairies etc.--something seen, heard, or felt by a group but not clearly). Three witnesses?

3. Two people in a new relationship wanting to please the other and trying to decipher what the other person wants out of the relationship. With neither person wishing to force the trajectory of the relationship, it nevertheless moves like the ouija board in a definite direction that may surprise both people in the end. In the end, both may be convinced that the other one pushed for the outcome. If the end was unpleasant then each will blame the other and it will be almost impossible for either to see what really happened.

4. The madness of mobs.

A different but closely related account can be given as to how dreams are constructed from neural noise. See the introduction in Dennett's "Consciouness Explained". In this case the "interpreting crowd" is the myriad neural modules involved in perception and control.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_JAK
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Ouija Board

Post by _JAK »

_Tarski
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Re: Ouija Board

Post by _Tarski »

JAK wrote:Ouija Board

JAK

Somehow this link doesn't work for me.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Very interesting.

Thanks.
_JAK
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Post by _JAK »

barrelomonkeys wrote:Very interesting.

Thanks.


barrelomonkeys,

Did my link work for you?

JAK
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Just out of curiosity, Tarsk, how does this topic relate to Mormonism?
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

I went ahead and read the entire book today. I can see how noise or fuzz could definitely create one or more hallucinations or dreams.

For anyone interested in a bit of the section Tarski referred to I've quoted one part (of many) that I found particularly interesting:

Since one's perceptual systems are presumably always exploring an ongoing situation (rather than a fait accompli, a finished dream narrative already told) subsequent "contradictory" confirmations can be interpreted by the machinery as indicating a new change in the world, rather than a revision in the story known by the dream relaters. The ghost was blue when last I looked, but has now suddenly turned green; its hands have turned into claws, and so forth. The volatility of metamorphosis of objects in dreams and hallucinations is one of the most striking features of those narratives, and what is even more striking is how seldom these noticed metamorphosis "bother" us while we are dreaming. So the farmhouse in Vermont is now suddenly revealed to be a bank in Puerto Rico, and the horse I was riding is now a car, no a speedboat, and my companion began the ride as my grandmother but has become the Pope. These things happen.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

JAK, your link worked fine.
_JAK
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Thanks

Post by _JAK »

barrelomonkeys wrote:JAK, your link worked fine.


Thanks for the confirmation!
It worked for me as well, so I was surprised at its reported failure.

JAK
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Thinking about the oujia board lately. I think often times when there are two parties influencing the board -even when not completely aware of the micromovements - they may be unaware of a third party trying to influence the board as well.

Certainly I can see how upon reflection there may be questions as to what occurred and what was spelled out.

Unfortunately when there is a 3rd party influence (perhaps a trickster under the table attempting to spell out words that the two parties will recoil from) sometimes it is more difficult to decipher precisely who was responsible for what.

Madness of mobs is indeed a good thing to think on.

Of course what if there was a rabble rouser that incited the violence? Those that were swept up in the moment may not recognize (at the time) that there was INDEED someone that was responsible for the resulting confusion and chaos.

Of course upon reflection, time, and thought it can become clear that sometimes these things that have a 'mind of their own' actually had a starting point where SOMEONE did sway the participants. Even if the participants were not fully aware of that influence!
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