Election Litigation Status

[Gunnar]

Maybe it can't be said that advocating overturning the 2016 election is literally virtuous given the currently established rules, but it comes a lot closer to being so than trying to overturn the last election that was won decisively by both the Electoral College vote and the popular vote. That the Electoral College system can and has made it possible for candidates to sometimes win the popular vote and still lose the election makes it inherently undemocratic IMHO. I hope that the recent deplorable events reinforce the impetus to amend the constitution to eliminate that glaring flaw sometime during what remains of my lifetime. I would die a little happier if I could see that impediment to fair and democratic elections permanently removed, particularly for the sakes of my children and grandchild, even though I know that even that is not a surefire guarantee that the best available candidate will win always win the Presidency.

[honorentheos]

It's important to remember our Constitution has guards against pure, absolute majority rule built in intentionally put there by the founders. The concept of the electoral college served many purposes. Whether or not they are broken and outdated could be questioned, but I'd argue they shouldn't be questioned on the grounds one didn't like the results of an election and wants to see the next one turn out the way one prefers.

There are plenty of ways to rationalize a position. But the current problem deserves some real self work to get past those rationalizations, being willing to be self critical and really dig into where ones position is coming from.

[Moksha]

I doubt that bill will pass as written but it could. I would hope the Governor would veto it if it did, but he also recently faced censure from the State GOP who reelected a crazy person in Kelli Ward as chairperson. Ducey may decide his political death isn't going to stop the inevitable so why fall on the sword if no one else is going to stand up. It's surreal.

If this bill passes in Arizona and is not vetoed then it will inevitably end up before the the Supreme Court.

[Gunnar]

It's important to remember our Constitution has guards against pure, absolute majority rule built in intentionally put there by the founders. The concept of the electoral college served many purposes. Whether or not they are broken and outdated could be questioned, but I'd argue they shouldn't be questioned on the grounds one didn't like the results of an election and wants to see the next one turn out the way one prefers.

Yes, I have heard similar arguments before, and I am familiar enough with American history to know why the founders chose that method of electing the President. Maybe it could be rationally argued that in those early days, considering the average educational level of the American populace at the time and other contemporary factors, the Electoral College system made more sense then. I am quite convinced, however, that the concept is indeed broken and outdated now. And I don't think I am questioning the concept only or mainly on the grounds that one might not like the results of an election and want to see the next one turn out the way one prefers. I can't help but believe that in today's world, electing the President directly by popular vote, without the intermediate step of the Electoral College system would be both fairer and more democratic. I also think the fairness and democracy of the elections could be further enhanced by adopting a ranked-choice voting system. I'm not sure, however, that ranked-choice voting system wouldn't be better left to the choice of individual states than mandated by the U.S. Constitution.

There are plenty of ways to rationalize a position. But the current problem deserves some real self work to get past those rationalizations, being willing to be self critical and really dig into where ones position is coming from.

To be sure!

[Gunnar]

I doubt that bill will pass as written but it could. I would hope the Governor would veto it if it did, but he also recently faced censure from the State GOP who reelected a crazy person in Kelli Ward as chairperson. Ducey may decide his political death isn't going to stop the inevitable so why fall on the sword if no one else is going to stand up. It's surreal.

If this bill passes in Arizona and is not vetoed then it will inevitably end up before the Supreme Court.

I'm sure you're right about that. I'm also fairly sure that The Supreme Court would rule against it. I know for sure that no one would object more loudly than Republicans if a Democrat controlled legislature overturned a Republican win by popular vote in their state in that manner.

[Moksha]

I know for sure that no one would object more loudly than Republicans if a Democrat controlled legislature overturned a Republican win by popular vote in their state in that manner.

Can you imagine the thrashing and apoplexy this would cause Leeuniverse/LDSfaqs? You Leftists would never hear the end of it!!!

Potentially, the thrashing could inspire Lee to produce another exercise video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3gKT9r4OIA

[honorentheos]

It's important to remember our Constitution has guards against pure, absolute majority rule built in intentionally put there by the founders. The concept of the electoral college served many purposes. Whether or not they are broken and outdated could be questioned, but I'd argue they shouldn't be questioned on the grounds one didn't like the results of an election and wants to see the next one turn out the way one prefers.

Yes, I have heard similar arguments before, and I am familiar enough with American history to know why the founders chose that method of electing the President. Maybe it could be rationally argued that in those early days, considering the average educational level of the American populace at the time and other contemporary factors, the Electoral College system made more sense then. I am quite convinced, however, that the concept is indeed broken and outdated now. And I don't think I am questioning the concept only or mainly on the grounds that one might not like the results of an election and want to see the next one turn out the way one prefers. I can't help but believe that in today's world, electing the President directly by popular vote, without the intermediate step of the Electoral College system would be both fairer and more democratic. I also think the fairness and democracy of the elections could be further enhanced by adopting a ranked-choice voting system. I'm not sure, however, that ranked-choice voting system wouldn't be better left to the choice of individual states than mandated by the U.S. Constitution.

There are plenty of ways to rationalize a position. But the current problem deserves some real self work to get past those rationalizations, being willing to be self critical and really dig into where ones position is coming from.

To be sure!

Set aside the electoral college and look at what was said. One side was defined as justified, possibly virtuous even, in seeking to have the results of an election overturned. The other, evil.

Why?

[honorentheos]

I doubt that bill will pass as written but it could. I would hope the Governor would veto it if it did, but he also recently faced censure from the State GOP who reelected a crazy person in Kelli Ward as chairperson. Ducey may decide his political death isn't going to stop the inevitable so why fall on the sword if no one else is going to stand up. It's surreal.

If this bill passes in Arizona and is not vetoed then it will inevitably end up before the the Supreme Court.

Probably.

[canpakes]

Another tantrum.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... V9wzVz0_Z0

[Moksha]

Another tantrum.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... V9wzVz0_Z0

The link brings up an error listing.