OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

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_beastie
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OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

Old Man Murray, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump and the end of Democracy

Off and on for the past six months or so I’ve been trying to figure out gamergate in general, and its influence on specific trends in the US. It’s been challenging, to say the least, because gamergate is so polarized that I’m never sure if I’m reading an unbiased reporting. So it’s possible I have some false ideas about it all. I’m posting this in the expectation that at least a few posters here have looked into this as well and can help me out.

At this point, I am leaning towards this article:

https://mic.com/articles/180888/erik-wo ... .JG6NrmKd8

Today, most people probably aren’t familiar with Old Man Murray, a gaming and humor website that ran from 1997 to 2002. Its writers and founders may ring a bell, though, as the creative minds behind some of the industry's most critically acclaimed games. Erik Wolpaw was a writer for Psychonauts, Portal 1, and Portal 2. Chet Faliszek was a writer on Left 4 Dead and Portal 1-2. Together, they “invented the internet,” as Scott Pilgrimauthor Bryan Lee O’Malley put it.


Old Man Murray popularized the anything-goes nihilism of internet culture, as several in the Rock, Paper, Shotgun piece attest. Search the site's archives, which are still live, and you’ll find a sea of “ironic” Nazi humor (“this way to the gas chamber, retardeds!”), porn, wild-eyed anarchism, disability jokes (like creating a flashing webpage for “the little epileptic Japanese boy or girl inside us all”), racial slurs “I’m Chet and this is my partner and 4-life nigga erik”) and cracks about child abuse. None of this even scratches the surface. Look for yourself, if you're curious.


Wolpaw and Faliszek were idolized by SomethingAwful, 4chan and the other dark reaches of the web. As Joel Johnson of Kotaku put it in 2011, the duo's “willful, ironic troglodytism was aped by internet idiots for years, but without the brilliance.” (Where or what the brilliance was remains a mystery.)

Through OMM and its notorious offshoot shock site Portal of Evil (which Faliszek managed until 2011, and which can be seen as the template for later ridicule boards like /r/fatpeoplehate), the pair pioneered internet shock-jockery, reveling in and spreading the most disgusting, heinous content possible. Under the guise of irony, they built an online culture that would later, without any involvement from them, produce the Raymond comic at SomethingAwful — an echo of OMM’s own “satirical” abuse of Stevie Case and others.

In Twitter's plague of frog-avatar trolls, and even in popular YouTube bigotry artists like JonTron, we can see this culture continuing today. The goal has always been offense. Those offended are simply “too sensitive,” and any attempt made to improve the discourse is “censorship.”


The site’s core appeal was its populism. Earlier game journalism, particularly in America, “tended to take a slightly clinical, Consumer Reports approach to reviews,” as writer Shamus Young once put it. This fit uneasily with the informal, aggressive culture slowly beginning to form around more violent games like Quake (1996). Young, echoing many in the Rock, Paper, Shotgun feature, argued that Old Man Murray “more closely reflected how players actually felt” than the so-called professional reviewers had managed.

We have the benefit of hindsight: we know how populism ends. If Walker and the rest are Old Man Murray’s respectable descendants, Gamergate is more akin to the site’s acid reflux. The misanthropic 15-year-olds who devoured Grand Theft Auto III when it launched — that game being an artifact of Old Man Murray (and British lad) culture — are 31 now. The angry, entitled “Chocolate Milk Kids” of the early 2000s are grown adults in 2017.

Such people have spent their lives in a gamer culture rallied and given shape by Old Man Murray, and it contains only two rules: anything goes and nothing matters.


In the ’80s and early ’90s, one of the best-known and best-loved game designers was Roberta Williams, creator of King's Quest. The undisputed top critic in gaming was a woman writing under the pseudonym Scorpia. In Britain, Anita Sinclair's company Magnetic Scrolls was a household name; in France, Muriel Tramis rewrote the book on what games could be.

Countless examples exist of women's enormous involvement during this period. Williams and Scorpia and others, many years later, said they’d never faced any kind of discrimination back then: jobs weren't denied to them. There were no pornographic comics about them in circulation. There was no equivalent to Old Man Murray or Gamergate. It wasn’t perfect, but it was better.

At that time, the biggest computer games weren't Call of Duty sequels and other first-person-shooters. They were flight simulators, adventures, strategy titles, roleplaying games and management games. Doritos-and-Dew misogynists — such a familiar sight for us — were unknown to the game industry. Even as violent shooters like Quake and Doom (1993) and their many transgressive offspring began to attract a new crowd, “edgy” titles were vastly outsold by games like Microsoft Flight Simulator and classic adventure puzzle game Myst. Four years after its release in 1993, Myst still beat Quake’s 1997 sales by more than three to one in the United States.


Old Man Murray hated this old order, and the site’s biggest target was (famously) Roberta Williams herself.
In a post that took just 70 words to cross the line from irony into abject cruelty, Wolpaw once called Williams a “pompous damned bitch” and “the woman who invented human suffering.” He then speculated that she was mentally ill and openly hoped she'd commit suicide. The site gave voice and power to the Quake crowd, at the time labeled “casual gamers” by many in the old guard. Williams made a similar point in a 1999 interview, and it enraged OMM.


Looping back to the beginning of the article:

Jade Raymond was, in some sense, the first casualty.

As producer of Ubisoft's Assassin’s Creed, Raymond seemed omnipresent in 2007. Creed marked the beginning of an exciting new gaming franchise with a woman in its driver’s seat, and the industry became obsessed with both. Then a comic circulated on the infamous forum SomethingAwful, a haven of internet and gamer culture at the time, that depicted Raymond in a series of degrading, pornographic situations.

A dream, or maybe just a delusion, died in that moment. Looking back, you can see it happen in MTV's 2007 interview with designer Brenda Romero (formerly Brathwaite), during which she learns mid-conversation about the Raymond comic. Up to that point, she's upbeat about the treatment of women in the industry, which she calls “a fairly liberal, hip place” wherein gender is mostly irrelevant.

After hearing Raymond's story, Romero is clearly shaken. She starts to recall the many, smaller instances of gamer culture's mistreatment of women. She starts to watch her words, self-conscious that her comments could spark “some sort of horrible comic.” Romero has been active in games longer than most other women in the public eye (she started on Wizardry in 1981), but here she encounters something new. Later, she pauses to add, “I'm still really shocked by that comic. That's still just amazing.”

That December, Wired’s Earnest Cavalli verbalized the feelings of many in the industry. “I’d like to think the internet isn’t comprised almost entirely of 14-year-old misanthropes,” he wrote, “but based on the unmentionable events surrounding [Assassin’s Creed], I could be wrong.”


I know from my own children that gamers often have their sense of personal identity enmeshed with their gaming and specific games. It reminds me a little of religion in that sense. If you attack their games, they feel personally attacked.

So if this article is accurate, and the “old guard” in the gaming community was dismissive of the new wave of gaming, which was more violence-male oriented, then it makes sense that those new wave gamers felt personally attacked and responded back in a very personal and degrading manner. And having been influenced by the nihilistic, shock jock Old Man Murray, it also makes sense that they follow that tone.

This has helped me understand some elements of current internet culture. I’m 60 years old. I grew up without the internet, and spent a couple of adult decades without it as well. I never liked video games with some exceptions (word games). That’s why I’ve had to study this like an outsider. I am alien to this culture, which is why I admit I may have some elements wrong.

I think that many video games are usually geared towards appealing to young teenage boys. I think that’s particularly true of the more violent ones. So it makes sense that the reaction of that crowd towards women can be reactionary. Young teenage boys are just realizing the full power that women have in their lives, and sometimes it makes them mad as hell.

Steve Bannon got interested in this subculture through a money-making scheme.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/tal ... 489713001/

In 2005, Bannon secured $60 million in funding from Goldman Sachs and other investors for Internet Gaming Entertainment, a Hong Kong-based company. IGE did not make games, but instead employed "low-wage Chinese workers" to play online multiplayer game World of Warcraft and earn in-game gold that could be traded for virtual goods, which in turn could be resold to players of the hugely popular PC game for real money, Green writes. At the time, the game published by Blizzard Entertainment, had about 10 million subscribers.


Eventually, that was shut down, but Bannon was still interested in the community or another reason.

Even though the business plan was a flop, Bannon became intrigued by the game's online community dynamics. In describing gamers, Bannon said, "These guys, these rootless white males, had monster power. ... It was the pre-reddit. It's the same guys on (one of a trio of online message boards owned by IGE) Thottbot who were [later] on reddit" and other online message boards where the alt-right flourished, Bannon said.

Green postulates that Bannon's time at IGE was "one that introduced him to a hidden world, burrowed deep into his psyche, and provided a kind of conceptual framework that he would later draw on to build up the audience for Breitbart News, and then to help marshal the online armies of trolls and activists that overran national politicians and helped give rise to Donald Trump," Green writes.

After taking over in 2012 at the Breitbart News Network — it was founded five years earlier by Andrew Breitbart, who died in 2012 — Bannon recruited Milo Yiannopoulos to handle technology coverage.

Like Andrew Breitbart, Yiannopoulos "just had that 'it' factor," Bannon says in the book. "The difference was, Andrew had a very strong moral universe, and Milo is an amoral nihilist."

Yiannopoulos devoted much of Bretibart's tech coverage to cultural issues, particularly Gamergate, a long-running online argument over gaming culture that peaked in 2014. And that helped fuel an online alt-right movement sparked by Breitbart News.

"I realized Milo could connect with these kids right away," Bannon told Green. "You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever and then get turned onto politics and Trump."


Trump, being a natural bully, was ready to bring these tactics to his presidential campaign. He attacked women, the disabled, Muslims, Mexicans, etc. The Republican party was largely ineffectual in standing up to him out of fear of alienating his base. Now obviously most of Trump’s base was not the OMM gamergate crowd, but those that Milo was martialed to appeal to were. And his margin of victory was so slight it may have been an important component.

But aside from helping him get elected, I wonder if this subculture is having a much larger impact on the host culture via Trumpism. In particular, this:

Anything goes, and nothing matters.

Part of the reason I link this to the (possible, hopefully not) end of democracy is that the “anything goes” includes fake news, which Bannon helped feed this crowd in the first place. “Nothing matters” includes a world leader saying anything that pops into his mind without forethought, and that sometimes includes insinuating threats of nuclear annihilation of another country or dismantling the free press.

I think that this trend towards nihilism/shock jockery in a segment of our population is being used and manipulated by people who don’t really care about liberal democracies in the end. They have a vision of the world, and the threats therein, and they want the power to deal with it according to their vision, and the values of liberal democracies are less important and can be discarded. That’s what I think Bannon is doing.

And Trump is just being used by Bannon (and Mercer). Trump is just a clumsy kleptocratic. I don’t think he adheres to some underlying philosophy like Bannon and Mercer. But Trump was effective in appealing to this crowd. After all:

Anything goes and nothing matters.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

beastie wrote:I know from my own children that gamers often have their sense of personal identity enmeshed with their gaming and specific games. It reminds me a little of religion in that sense. If you attack their games, they feel personally attacked.


The irony of that statement, coming from an emotionally distraught Liberal on this board... It's so blind and so self-unaware that I lack the words to adequately describe just how narcissistic it is.

Wait. Maybe not.

You're Baizou.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/digitalib ... net-insult

The question has received more than 400 answers from Zhihu users, which include some of the most representative perceptions of the 'white left'. Although the emphasis varies, baizuo is used generally to describe those who “only care about topics such as immigration, minorities, LGBT and the environment” and “have no sense of real problems in the real world”; they are hypocritical humanitarians who advocate for peace and equality only to “satisfy their own feeling of moral superiority”; they are “obsessed with political correctness” to the extent that they “tolerate backwards Islamic values for the sake of multiculturalism”; they believe in the welfare state that “benefits only the idle and the free riders”; they are the “ignorant and arrogant westerners” who “pity the rest of the world and think they are saviours”.


- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

This is what the Baizou have become:

Image

SMFH.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

I don't know how future historians will ultimately untangle the threads that all lead back to our current democratic crisis. Does it also reveal itself in the Bush v. Gore decision and subsequent early years of the Bush administration as political opposition became a moral cause of many? The Iraq war and revelations regarding the claims that led us into it? The rise of Sarah Palin as the embodiment of talk show politics in office rather than the professional politician? The Obama Presidency with it's emotional support and opposition coupled with the silent killing of both major parties through patricide on the part of tea party Republicans and starvation on the part of an unsupportive President on the part of the Democrats? Does it really go back to the Clinton years where trade deals, economic paradigm shifts, and the flailing about of a national identity that lost it's nemesis was unable to orient to a world where threat parity was not a thing? The Reagan tax cuts and erosion of the American middle class? Talk radio? Seinfeld? Toyota? Drugs? Millennials failing to grow up? Boomers failing to let go and let the younger generations thrive (heard this one if you think that's hyperbole)? Gen X's making slacker culture a thing? Taxes keeping people in wage slavery to the state?

Here's my take: Everyone alive today is contributing to it. And the more prone one is to look for the "other" to blame for it as opposed to the supposed obviousness of the moral correctness of one's own position, the worse one is contributing to it.

Gamergate had a lot to do with escalation. And it had to do with the worst behaviors we see on all sides on the internet. There's a temptation to reduce it down to nihilistic white guys who live loser lives battling with radical man-hating feminists because that happened. But at it's core, I'd say it really is people going blind from rage. The same mentality behind the chan-ers is the same mentality that fuels Antifa anarchists.

And frankly the nihilism comes out when I read things like the OP or Cam's responses because of how clearly they are looking for a target to blame that matches a perceived list of evil people that are on a most wanted list. And there is reasonable amounts of truth behind both but taken to the point it overwhelms one's common sense to engage it. So, clearly we don't need to be introspective about this, the cause is pure evil.

Yep, we're screwed.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

honorentheos wrote:I don't know how future historians will ultimately untangle the threads that all lead back to our current democratic crisis. Does it also reveal itself in the Bush v. Gore decision and subsequent early years of the Bush administration as political opposition became a moral cause of many? The Iraq war and revelations regarding the claims that led us into it? The rise of Sarah Palin as the embodiment of talk show politics in office rather than the professional politician? The Obama Presidency with it's emotional support and opposition coupled with the silent killing of both major parties through patricide on the part of tea party Republicans and starvation on the part of an unsupportive President on the part of the Democrats? Does it really go back to the Clinton years where trade deals, economic paradigm shifts, and the flailing about of a national identity that lost it's nemesis unable to orient to a world where threat parity was not a thing? The Reagan tax cuts and erosion of the American middle class? Talk radio? Seinfeld? Toyota? Drugs? Millennials failing to grow up? Boomers failing to let go and let the younger generations thrive (heard this one if you think that's hyperbole)? Gen X's making slacker culture a thing? Taxes keeping people in wage slavery to the state?

Here's my take: Everyone alive today is contributing to it. And the more prone one is to look for the "other" to blame for it as opposed to the supposed obviousness of the moral correctness of one's own position, the worse one is contributing to it.

Gamergate had a lot to do with escalation. And it had to do with the worst behaviors we see on all sides on the internet. There's a temptation to reduce it down to nihilistic white guys who live loser lives battling with radical man-hating feminists because that happened. But at it's core, I'd say it really is people going blind from rage. The same mentality behind the chan-ers is the same mentality that fuels Antifa anarchists.

And frankly the nihilism comes out when I read things like the OP or Cam's responses because of how clearly they are looking for a target to blame that matches a perceived list of evil people that are on a most wanted list. And there is reasonable amounts of truth behind both but taken to the point it overwhelms one's common sense to engage it. So, clearly we don't need to be introspective about this, the cause is pure evil.

Yep, we're ____.


I'm a radical centrist. I'm very passionate about it. I resent you lumping me in with the extremists on this board.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Ok
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_beastie
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

honorentheos wrote:I don't know how future historians will ultimately untangle the threads that all lead back to our current democratic crisis. Does it also reveal itself in the Bush v. Gore decision and subsequent early years of the Bush administration as political opposition became a moral cause of many? The Iraq war and revelations regarding the claims that led us into it? The rise of Sarah Palin as the embodiment of talk show politics in office rather than the professional politician? The Obama Presidency with it's emotional support and opposition coupled with the silent killing of both major parties through patricide on the part of tea party Republicans and starvation on the part of an unsupportive President on the part of the Democrats? Does it really go back to the Clinton years where trade deals, economic paradigm shifts, and the flailing about of a national identity that lost it's nemesis was unable to orient to a world where threat parity was not a thing? The Reagan tax cuts and erosion of the American middle class? Talk radio? Seinfeld? Toyota? Drugs? Millennials failing to grow up? Boomers failing to let go and let the younger generations thrive (heard this one if you think that's hyperbole)? Gen X's making slacker culture a thing? Taxes keeping people in wage slavery to the state?

Here's my take: Everyone alive today is contributing to it. And the more prone one is to look for the "other" to blame for it as opposed to the supposed obviousness of the moral correctness of one's own position, the worse one is contributing to it.

Gamergate had a lot to do with escalation. And it had to do with the worst behaviors we see on all sides on the internet. There's a temptation to reduce it down to nihilistic white guys who live loser lives battling with radical man-hating feminists because that happened. But at it's core, I'd say it really is people going blind from rage. The same mentality behind the chan-ers is the same mentality that fuels Antifa anarchists.

And frankly the nihilism comes out when I read things like the OP or Cam's responses because of how clearly they are looking for a target to blame that matches a perceived list of evil people that are on a most wanted list. And there is reasonable amounts of truth behind both but taken to the point it overwhelms one's common sense to engage it. So, clearly we don't need to be introspective about this, the cause is pure evil.

Yep, we're ____.


Well, of course there are lots of variables. This post was just about one.

And thinking about one variable does not prevent people from considering others, as well.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_EAllusion
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:I don't know how future historians will ultimately untangle the threads that all lead back to our current democratic crisis. Does it also reveal itself in the Bush v. Gore decision and subsequent early years of the Bush administration as political opposition became a moral cause of many? The Iraq war and revelations regarding the claims that led us into it? The rise of Sarah Palin as the embodiment of talk show politics in office rather than the professional politician? The Obama Presidency with it's emotional support and opposition coupled with the silent killing of both major parties through patricide on the part of tea party Republicans and starvation on the part of an unsupportive President on the part of the Democrats? Does it really go back to the Clinton years where trade deals, economic paradigm shifts, and the flailing about of a national identity that lost it's nemesis was unable to orient to a world where threat parity was not a thing? The Reagan tax cuts and erosion of the American middle class? Talk radio? Seinfeld? Toyota? Drugs? Millennials failing to grow up? Boomers failing to let go and let the younger generations thrive (heard this one if you think that's hyperbole)? Gen X's making slacker culture a thing? Taxes keeping people in wage slavery to the state?

Here's my take: Everyone alive today is contributing to it. And the more prone one is to look for the "other" to blame for it as opposed to the supposed obviousness of the moral correctness of one's own position, the worse one is contributing to it.

Gamergate had a lot to do with escalation. And it had to do with the worst behaviors we see on all sides on the internet. There's a temptation to reduce it down to nihilistic white guys who live loser lives battling with radical man-hating feminists because that happened. But at it's core, I'd say it really is people going blind from rage. The same mentality behind the chan-ers is the same mentality that fuels Antifa anarchists.

And frankly the nihilism comes out when I read things like the OP or Cam's responses because of how clearly they are looking for a target to blame that matches a perceived list of evil people that are on a most wanted list. And there is reasonable amounts of truth behind both but taken to the point it overwhelms one's common sense to engage it. So, clearly we don't need to be introspective about this, the cause is pure evil.

Yep, we're screwed.


The rise of gamergate and the contemporary synthesis of strains of red-pill misogyny, ethnonationalism, and just general anti-liberal "ironic, but not really" trolling clearly are a significant phenomenon that is a major factor in our current political climate. And it's still difficult to believe something that recent and that dumb could be that influential, but it is. It's around that time you get a lot of interaction between alt-right subgroups where cross-pollination of ideas leads something resembling a subculture with identifiable stereotypical thinking you can point to. It's there you first see a real mobilization of those people in the real world. Before you know it, the same internet culture is a real influence on getting Trump into office and shaping the idea space around our entire political system. From teenagers mad at getting flack for using racial slurs while playing Call of Duty to that.

The weird thing is I knew people online both before and after they were sucked into gamergate culture as it was developing. This isn't meant to diagnose the entire group, but those people all had a few traits in common. All of them were vaguely nerdy without being terribly smart, had trouble finding relationships leading to a streak of resentment towards women, and tended to be into their own self-confident philosophizing on topics independent of connection to actual scholarship. Seeing them sucked in was surreal enough that it doesn't quite feel real.

I think Sarah Palin is underrated as a proto-Trump. They're both symptoms of the same disease. As far as when this all went off the rails, you get a lot of different answers. For me, I think by far the single biggest problem is the rise of right-wing media that is propagandistic and focused on promotion of shock-jock infotainment. There is no one year where it went all bad, but sometime in the mid-90's is when I'd say things started to fall apart in earnest.
_honorentheos
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _honorentheos »

Beastie, to be explicit I think your OP is representative of what is undermining democracy. It's one of many fundamental ways of thinking that are incompatible with pluralism.

ETA: Just as Cam's trolling post is. His is shorter but they both are looking for caricatures to blame for problems that deserve much more investigation and willingness to ask questions against ones own views.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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Re: OMM, Gamergate, Bannon, Trump, and the End of Democracy

Post by _beastie »

honorentheos wrote:Beastie, to be explicit I think your OP is representative of what is undermining democracy. It's one of many fundamental way of thinking that are incompatible with pluralism.


Believe me, honor, I understood what you meant quite well.

Your stance has been pretty clear lately. Any attempt to analyze the factors that have contributed to the potential erosion of liberal democracy have to meet your standards of being fair and balanced, or they're part of the problem.

That's cool. That's your thing right now. I don't agree.

See how we can do that without descending into name calling and "ironic" slurs? We're losing that ability in our liberal democracy right now, and I think what I outlined in my post is one reason why.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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