Doc, Homless in LA

[_Markk]

Here's a video I took today of homeless people downtown, in regards to your question about putting them to work. Most these folks are beyond ever holding a job or being able to get off the streets on their own. The very most are drug addicts, alcoholics, and/or mentally ill/burn outs.

The poop and pee on the streets, have there own little economy...they cook, have pets, fix it shops, stores (plywood table with goods)...they even sell coffee in the morning.

A few make it out, but the most will never make it. They do have plenty of food and water...and some can even get free cell phones, which in many ways keep them there.

It is growing out of control and is not just downtown, it is most everywhere in So CA. You would be surprised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D1Tg7eeNFY

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

Thanks for taking the time to post that. I watched it twice. It is... Uh... That makes me want to build a cabin in the mountains and opt out of the future.

I have no idea what the answer is. That's some 3rd world horse crap. When I was in Peru from 90-92 you didn't even see that. That's ridiculous.

- Doc

[_canpakes]

To clarify the point, are you claiming (based on comments from the other thread) that all of these folks have been forced into this situation by an influx of illegal aliens? Or just that there's little hope that they'll possess the ability to exit this current status no matter how they got there in the first place?

[_Markk]

The video really does not show the reality of it. There are pockets like this all over SoCa. From LA to San Diego. Freeway off ramps, under passes, the LA river banks, Santa Ana River banks. It is impossible to enjoy a park in far too many communities.

I have a project going on in the City of Orange, in the really nice part of town next to Chapman University, in what is called the circle. Shops, antique stores, and really good food. Long story short, there is a small dead end alley between the building we are restoring and a Starbucks. I had to literally pick up scores of needles, and maybe a hundred cheap Vodka bottles and kick homeless out of the alley and the building. One homeless man thought he was Perry Mason and argued with me and refused to leave, until I called the cops.

I worked with the homeless for years in San Bernardino...and I can tell you it is beyond being out of control, and way worse than it was even 10 years ago.

One answer that I see is stop the drugs by any means necessary, and deal with the mentally ill...open up the hospitals that Regan closed. We have to stop heroin, speed, and other drugs that create most of the homelessness, and mental illness (burnouts).

What is also crazy now , in that people just smoke doobie walking downtown sidewalks...it is legal so no one cares.

[_Markk]

To clarify the point, are you claiming (based on comments from the other thread) that all of these folks have been forced into this situation by an influx of illegal aliens? Or just that there's little hope that they'll possess the ability to exit this current status no matter how they got there in the first place?

LOL...are that desperate. Simply amazing. This has nothing to do with the other thread, at all, other than a question Doc asked about maybe putting the homeless to work.

[_EAllusion]

The idea behind the deinstittutionalization movement of the 70's / early 80's was to close down mental institutions and replace their resources with social services. This had a coalition of support from both liberals and conservatives because happily this was both a much cheaper approach to the problem and one that treated people much better. Unfortunately, one of Reagan's great failings was to continue with the deinstitutionalization part while crippling the social services resource response at the federal level. So you ended up with scores of people leaving institutions, but falling through the cracks with without having sufficient resources in the community to address their mental health problems. This contributed to an explosion of homelessness in the 80's. This story is well understood enough that it is part of standard college curriculum.

The solution to this isn't to throw people back in mental institutions. Institutions are terrible places that should always be a last resort option. It wouldn't be a bad idea to beef up mental health resources though, as that almost always pays for itself by diverting people from other, more expensive options such as hospitals or jail.

What is also crazy now , in that people just smoke doobie walking downtown sidewalks...it is legal so no one cares.

Surely you've seen people smoke tobacco on the street before? Or drink alcohol? Both of those are much worse. The latter is a known major contributor to homelessness. Doobies? Not so much.

[_Markk]

The idea behind the deinstittutionalization movement of the 70's / early 80's was to close down mental institutions and replace their resources with social services. This had a coalition of support from both liberals and conservatives because happily this was both a much cheaper approach to the problem and one that treated people much better. Unfortunately, one of Reagan's great failings was to continue with the deinstitutionalization part while crippling the social services resource response at the federal level. So you ended up with scores of people leaving institutions, but falling through the cracks with without having sufficient resources in the community to address their mental health problems. This contributed to an explosion of homelessness in the 80's. This story is well understood enough that it is part of standard college curriculum.

The solution to this isn't to throw people back in mental institutions. Institutions are terrible places that should always be a last resort option. It wouldn't be a bad idea to beef up mental health resources though, as that almost always pays for itself by diverting people from other, more expensive options such as hospitals or jail.

What is also crazy now , in that people just smoke doobie walking downtown sidewalks...it is legal so no one cares.

Surely you've seen people smoke tobacco on the street before? Or drink alcohol? Both of those are much worse. The latter is a known major contributor to homelessness. Doobies? Not so much.

Yes, they are much better off wandering the streets EA.

No one wants mental institutions so what resources would you suggest for these folks?

[_EAllusion]

Mental institutions are historically bad enough that yes, you would be much better off wandering the streets than taking your chances in one. You value real world experience, so take it as someone who has actual experience with people who were institutionalized historically and people who have been placed in institutions recently. It's somewhere in-between being sent to a jail, a CIA black site, and a community center.

But happily are choices aren't between do nothing and involuntary commitment in an institution. There are a vast array of community-based mental health resources that are used to help people where there is chronic under-funding relative to the scope of the problem. Community-based treatment has the triple benefit of being more humane, cheaper, and more effective. I can't speak to your local situation, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be hard to find papers and articles who could if you were looking.

The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability. Each needs its own set of different, but overlapping responses in terms of how you fold people into the "system" and get resources to them so they can have stable housing. That's why what goes on in a domestic violence center is different than, say, a program to get someone on MA to pay for anti-psychotics and med admin follow-up they sorely need. I work with the disabled due to mental illness population and can describe in a lot of detail how it works locally and what we could use to do our job better, but I'm sure it's a little different where you are as it would be anywhere.

[_canpakes]

To clarify the point, are you claiming (based on comments from the other thread) that all of these folks have been forced into this situation by an influx of illegal aliens? Or just that there's little hope that they'll possess the ability to exit this current status no matter how they got there in the first place?

LOL...are that desperate. Simply amazing. This has nothing to do with the other thread, at all, other than a question Doc asked about maybe putting the homeless to work.

Markk, that's OK. Just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss a connection out of that other thread aside from the remarked 'fitness' of these folks to return to a more typical working life.

[_EAllusion]

I don't know if this is true of So-Cal, but nationally there's a huge shortage of Methadone clinics for reasons that are too complicated to get into at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd bet that more maintenance opiate treatment is needed in the areas you are describing as needle-ridden.