Climate Alarmism

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Climate Alarmism

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Climate science deniers constantly accuse people who accept climate science as "alarmist." Of course, the label begs the question: is there anything about global warming to be alarmed about? Deniers act as if the climate models and IPCC reports predict that "DOOM" should have already happened. In fact, if you look at the actual reports, the projection for 2018 for the worst case and best cases are pretty similar. Right now, we're at about 1C over the pre-industrial baseline. No IPCC report has ever predicted DOOM at 1C over baseline. So, looking around and asking "where's the DOOM" is a pretty obvious straw man.

But what the chorus of shrieking deniers does is to keep the focus on the lower end of the IPCC projections. There is little discussion devoted to the high end. In particular, there is very little discussion of (1) What is the worst case? and (2) How likely is the worst case? If for example, the worst case is human extinction, it would be critical to know how likely that is. It's one thing to ask: what percentage risk should we accept of displacing a million people who live on coastlines? But something entirely different to ask: how much risk should we accept of killing off the human race? I think the first number would be quite a bit higher than the second.

I'd like to talk about the worst case and how likely it is. I'd also like to talk about the notion that climate scientists exaggerate the danger. There are some very good reasons to believe they do exactly the opposite. In particular, I'd like to focus on major feedbacks in the climate system that we know will raise the significantly raise the temperature, but that are not included in the present forecasts.

I intend this thread to be focussed narrowly on those topics. I'm simply going to be laying out a case that is not typically discussed because climate deniers drown it out. For purposes of this thread only, attacks on the climate science, as found in the literature and summarized in the AR 5 WG 1 are off topic. There are at least three other threads in which Water Dog has been cutting and pasting from denier websites. This thread is about the risks of the worst case, not about Argo floats or the global warming non-pause.

I want to start with where we are in terms of the risks of the worst case. This graph is from the most recent National Climate Assessment published by the U.S. government:

Image

https://science2017.globalchange.gov/do ... Report.pdf

The RCPs are "Representative Concentration Pathways." They are represent plausible future scenarios given different assumptions about future changes in human contribution to climate change. The numbers represent the change in radiative forcing in 2100 relative to the preindustrial baseline, expressed in watts/meter squared. RCP 8.5 is commonly referred to a the "business as usual" scenario. RCP 2.6 is the most optimistic of the scenarios -- the only one that results in a leveling off of temperature by 2100. It's important to note that these temperatures are in Fahrenheit, cuz it's an American report.

Each scenario has a range of value for any given year. That represents the range of uncertainty in the projection. (To convert changes in temperature to C, multiply by 5 and divide by 9.)

The black line represents observed temperature. This report was released in 2017. It shows that global temperature was with the predicted range of all three RCPs, and slightly above the mid range of each. Just as important, the predictions based on the three scenarios are almost indistinguishable at this scale in 2017. To distinguish among them, we really have to zoom in to a much finer scale.

If we use business as usual as the worst case, the median projection for 2100 is an increase of 8F. We've warmed 2F, which means another 6F to go. The top end of range exceeds 10F and the bottom is 5F

So, we have a projection based on just doing what we've been doing. That gives us a worst case projection for temperatures in 2100. And they keep increasing after that. So the next question to look at is how likely we are to end up in that RCP 8.5 range in 2100? And for that, we'll take a little dive into the AR 5 WG 1 report.

ETA: To avoid any confusion, I’m referring to RCP 8.5 as “business as usual” because it is the business as usual RCP included in the IPCC reports. It’s in the high range of the universe of scenarios that would qualify as business as usual, which makes it a good basis for discussing worst case.

Jump to next post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50277&start=21#p1152109
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Dr Exiled
_Emeritus
Posts: 3616
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:48 am

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Dr Exiled »

So, what is the solution, if any, assuming all the deniers get converted? From what I gather, the solutions provided are use less fossil fuel and have less children. Zero population is the answer my friend, without it the rest of us are through? Who can survive .......?

Regardless, if this means that society invests heavily in alternative energy sources, then that will be a good thing as energy is the basis of all our wars right now.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Exiled wrote:So, what is the solution, if any, assuming all the deniers get converted? From what I gather, the solutions provided are use less fossil fuel and have less children. Zero population is the answer my friend, without it the rest of us are through? Who can survive .......?

Regardless, if this means that society invests heavily in alternative energy sources, then that will be a good thing as energy is the basis of all our wars right now.


I’d really like to save discussions about solutions for another thread, please. There is a whole range of actions that could be taken, but until we have a grasp of the magnitude of the risk, I don’t think we can make sensible choices from among the many possibilities.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Water Dog »

Res Ipsa wrote:I’d really like to save discussions about solutions for another thread, please.

LOL. Okay. :rolleyes:

You have shown no risk. Just alarmist doom. Be afraid. Very afraid.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:I’d really like to save discussions about solutions for another thread, please.

LOL. Okay. :rolleyes:

You have shown no risk. Just alarmist doom. Be afraid. Very afraid.


I never claimed I had. Please take your derailing elsewhere.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _EAllusion »

I mentioned this a few times before, but our mainstream press covers climate change as if it were a debate where the range of legitimate opinions is total global warming denialism on the furthest right and something like IPCC median scenarios on the far left.

The reality of the scientific debate starts with accepting AGW as real. The comparatively “rightward” position would be the most optimistic IPCC scenarios involving technological advances that make the effects of climate change something that can be adapted to with minimal upheaval. The leftward position, which is within the range of legitimate scientific debate mind you, involves catastrophic changes that threaten civilization as we know it itself. To get something as kooky as mainstream conservative thinking on climate change on the left, you have to find those who think the earth is on a rapid path to a runaway greenhouse effect like what happened to Venus.

This false debate in the press likely distorts public perception of risk because people tend to illicitly think that the truth is somewhere in the middle when they can’t follow the technical arguments.
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Water Dog »

Res Ipsa wrote:I never claimed I had. Please take your derailing elsewhere.

What an ego.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _subgenius »

Res Ipsa wrote:I'd like to talk about the worst case and how likely it is. I'd also like to talk about the notion that climate scientists exaggerate the danger.

Ok, took a bit (brevity be damned) but this seems to be the point of the OP. And I have an interest here, so:
1. what is the worst case inasmuch as it is supported by the best data ?
2. how likely, a.k.a. predictable?, is this aforementioned worst case ?
3. what is the notion that climate scientists exaggerate the danger ?

I particularly appreciate #3 because exaggeration/understatement does not seem to be in the job description. I mean to what extent does a climate scientist have the professional know-how for concluding what the data means?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Res Ipsa »

subgenius wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:I'd like to talk about the worst case and how likely it is. I'd also like to talk about the notion that climate scientists exaggerate the danger.

Ok, took a bit (brevity be damned) but this seems to be the point of the OP. And I have an interest here, so:
1. what is the worst case inasmuch as it is supported by the best data ?
2. how likely, a.k.a. predictable?, is this aforementioned worst case ?
3. what is the notion that climate scientists exaggerate the danger ?

I particularly appreciate #3 because exaggeration/understatement does not seem to be in the job description. I mean to what extent does a climate scientist have the professional know-how for concluding what the data means?


That’s exactly where I’m hoping to go, Sub. But I’m going to have to do it in several chunks. It’s lots of ground to cover.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Climate Alarmism

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Sub, thinking about your questions, there is another way to come at question 1. Conceptually, the worst case is burning all the fossil fuels without removing significant CO2 either at the point of burning or from the atmosphere. I ran into one paper that attempted to predict the temperature increase that would result. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14845

Regardless of the ultimate cause for the observed relative stability in ΔFCO2,sol over the last 420 million years, business-as-usual emission scenarios (for example, representative concentration pathway RCP8.5)39 for fossil fuel emissions suggest that atmospheric CO2 could peak in 2,250 AD at ∼2,000 p.p.m. CO2 values as high as this were last seen in the Triassic around 220–200 Myrs ago (Figs 3 and 4). However, because of the steady increase in solar output over time, in terms of radiative forcing by the end of this century RCP8.5 is similar to the early Eocene, and by 2,250 AD exceeds what is recorded in the geological record for at least 99.9% of the last 420 Myrs (Figs 3 and 4). A recent study suggested that if both conventional and non-conventional fossil fuel reserves (amounting to ∼12,000 Pg C; ref. 40) were exhausted in such a business-as-usual scenario, atmospheric CO2 could rise to ∼5,000 p.p.m. by 2,400 AD (refs 41, 42), which is clearly higher, in terms of both forcing and absolute CO2, than at any time captured by our compilation (Figs 3 and 4, Wink12K scenario). Such a scenario therefore risks subjecting the Earth to a climate forcing that has no apparent geological precedent, for at least the last 420 Myrs.


Image

The authors ran their own scenario, which is the line labeled Wink 12K. It assumes burning all the fossil fuels. The increase in temperature tops out at around +18F. RCP 8.5, which I'm using as the worst case for the year 2100, tops out at around +12F (compared with the (+8F for 2100)

So, one could argue that the worst case is temperature leveling off at +18F. But this is just one paper I stumbled upon. I haven't tried to do any sort of broad search for what happens if we burn all the things. RCP 8.5 is the highest scenario that the IPCC uses, and so I think it makes sense to start there.

My bad. Bottom graph is forcing, not temp.

Temperatures in the Eocene are estimated to be 9-14C higher than today, so 16-25F. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-warmin ... ene-period But this is just one paper I stumbled upon. I haven't tried to do any sort of broad search for what happens if we burn all the things. RCP 8.5 is the highest scenario that the IPCC uses, and so I think it makes sense to start there.

The next step is to look at the literature and figure out what effects we expect an increase in temperature to +8F in 2100 to have. That's the next step.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Post Reply