The Reason for the Season

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_Maksutov
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The Reason for the Season

Post by _Maksutov »

Mary cheated. Mary lied.

But let's invent a religion, a full blown theology to some how rationalize this. :lol:

Kind of like Joseph Smith getting caught in the barn producing the vast BS edifice of "celestial marriage". And we got to see that mythmaking in real time.

Christianity is probably the same. In this case Mary may have been "overshadowed" by, say, a Roman soldier who moved on after producing the Messiah. But little Mary could tell a story and Joseph was either clueless or complicit. Either is far more likely than liaisons with angels and gods. :wink:

But don't let that take away the tinsel and the tunes, if there's something good in Christmas it's because you put it there, not some first century fantasists. :cool:

Mary Christmas, everyone.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Chap
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Chap »

Maksutov wrote:Mary cheated. Mary lied.

But let's invent a religion, a full blown theology to some how rationalize this.


I used to know a bit about New Testament scholarship a few decades ago. Without looking everything up again, and then going through the updating process, I'll just try to say what I find in my memory banks.

And that is that the 'infancy narratives' - that is, the parts of the gospel narratives that talk about the birth of Jesus- are a completely different kind of document from those parts that talk about his activity between the ages of about 30 to 33. In those later parts we are told that he had a mother, Mary, who may have been near him at the end, and also that some people in Nazareth thought he was 'the carpenter's son'. There may be some real historical content in all that.

But all the rest - contemporaneously claimed virgin birth, stories of angelic visitations, visits of shepherds and Magi - are very unlikely to resemble the actual circumstances of his birth. That stuff was narrated by people who felt that they needed some kind of background to this person who was, they had concluded, the promised Messiah. It was created because people had already made Jesus the centre of what was at least an active Jewish heresy. Christianity certainly did not originate FROM any claim made by the young Mary about the paternity of the child she was carrying, which we have no real reason to suppose people did not at the time think had been conceived with her husband quite normally. It was more the other way round.

Those more up to date in the field are welcome to correct me.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Maksutov
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Maksutov »

Chap wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Mary cheated. Mary lied.

But let's invent a religion, a full blown theology to some how rationalize this.


I used to know a bit about New Testament scholarship a few decades ago. Without looking everything up again, and then going through the updating process, I'll just try to say what I find in my memory banks.

And that is that the 'infancy narratives' - that is, the parts of the gospel narratives that talk about the birth of Jesus- are a completely different kind of document from those parts that talk about his activity between the ages of about 30 to 33. In those later parts we are told that he had a mother, Mary, who may have been near him at the end, and also that some people in Nazareth thought he was 'the carpenter's son'. There may be some real historical content in all that.

But all the rest - contemporaneously claimed virgin birth, stories of angelic visitations, visits of shepherds and Magi - are very unlikely to resemble the actual circumstances of his birth. That stuff was narrated by people who felt that they needed some kind of background to this person who was, they had concluded, the promised Messiah. It was created because people had already made Jesus the centre of what was at least an active Jewish heresy. Christianity certainly did not originate FROM any claim made by the young Mary about the paternity of the child she was carrying, which we have no real reason to suppose people did not at the time think had been conceived with her husband quite normally. It was more the other way round.

Those more up to date in the field are welcome to correct me.


Blessings on your thoughtful head, Chap.

My version is probably the more cynical one. Yours is certainly a more diplomatic one. :lol:

History is full of hoaxes that ballooned. Spirtualism came from the toe joints and lies of two teenage girls but is still fueling the careers of mediums in 2018. I've learned to look under rocks. Especially magic ones.

I do have to blame the Pythons (and my avatar) for some of my religious views. Ooops.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Chap
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Chap »

Maksutov wrote:I do have to blame the Pythons (and my avatar) for some of my religious views.


Image
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Maksutov »

Chap wrote:
Maksutov wrote:I do have to blame the Pythons (and my avatar) for some of my religious views.


Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itRbwbVTrzw
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Maksutov wrote:Mary Christmas, everyone.

#AllHolidaysMatter
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_subgenius
_Emeritus
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _subgenius »

Maksutov wrote:Mary cheated. Mary lied.

But let's invent a religion, a full blown theology to some how rationalize this. :lol:

Kind of like Joseph Smith getting caught in the barn producing the vast BS edifice of "celestial marriage". And we got to see that mythmaking in real time.

Christianity is probably the same. In this case Mary may have been "overshadowed" by, say, a Roman soldier who moved on after producing the Messiah. But little Mary could tell a story and Joseph was either clueless or complicit. Either is far more likely than liaisons with angels and gods. :wink:

But don't let that take away the tinsel and the tunes, if there's something good in Christmas it's because you put it there, not some first century fantasists. :cool:

Mary Christmas, everyone.

Have you guys abandoned the whole pagan appropriation protest? because your critique is all over the place and a bit incoherent. And do you really believe Christmas is a lemming-esque tradition in Western culture?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_canpakes
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _canpakes »

subgenius wrote:Have you guys abandoned the whole pagan appropriation protest? because your critique is all over the place and a bit incoherent.

Both ideas can completely and comfortably overlap.

The incoherence that you seem to be experiencing appears to be internally generated, as usual.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _Dr Exiled »

I agree with Maks .... Mary gets knocked up out of wedlock and a Savior is born, just like happened with my 16 year old cousin back in the day.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_subgenius
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Re: The Reason for the Season

Post by _subgenius »

canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:Have you guys abandoned the whole pagan appropriation protest? because your critique is all over the place and a bit incoherent.

Both ideas can completely and comfortably overlap.

The incoherence that you seem to be experiencing appears to be internally generated, as usual.

Naw, the incoherence was set forth by the OP....Mary's bastard son being an elaborate con for immaculate conception wasn't enough for me, now explain why the grifters decided to add Lazarus, curing blindness robe, the resurrection, loaves/fishes, etc... I mean, was there a meeting where the Illuminati pitched ideas? or was this a living document that evolved and refined its narrative at subsequent Acharya S society conventions?

(and when do i get to fold in the obvious involvement of the Clintons in all this?)
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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