Save the Board

[Kishkumen]

OK, Guys. It seems to me we need to decide right now what we are going to do to save our board from oblivion. A fair number of us have been here for a lot of years, and we have, each in our own way, invested quite a bit in this board. We are here for the community. We are here to interact with our friends. We are here to have the kinds of conversations we want to have. This place is a kind of family, and now new people have shown up who want to change the whole thing to reflect their own views and tastes. Now our friends are leaving. Are we going to let that happen?

I say, "Hell no!"

These days I am tired of the political and religious wrangling. I am tired of the fecal dodgeball contests. But, I care about my friends made here over the years. If I had my way, I would see them all come back. Including many of the apologists. But, these new guys are not going to play nicely, and they are going to chase our friends away. They will also take what we have built together and run it into the ground.

Are we going to let that happen?

I say, "Hell no!"

I get that a number of people are free speech purists. But, you need to decide here: do you want to protect pure free speech in this place to the complete obliteration of everything we have built, of our community of friends?

I say, "Hell no!"

Am I going to hold DocCam, Chap, and others to a different standard than I hold Cultellus? Maybe so! And, I am not ashamed to admit it. At the end of the day, I come here to talk to DocCam, Chap, and other old friends, not to live out an ideal of free speech wherein a pack of trolls can leave a trail of steamers all over the place to the point that all of my friends get sick of the crap and leave for good.

[Philo Sofee]

I entirely agree, but my strategy was called off and not allowed. I said this several weeks ago, and apparently the community isn't as important anymore as the rule of total free speech with no consequences. If trolls are not put in check, no message board can survive. I never, ever, EVER thought I'd say this, but damn, maybe the censorship of the old FAIR board IS the best way to go. Give total freedom, and we end up with total chaos and trolling. If our community isn't worth keeping happy, then someone needs to develop another messageboard where the rest of us can go which WILL be controlled from obvious blatant trolling.

[Chap]

Shades is evidently out of sorts.

He just needs to give the mods discretion to impose a ban on persistent trolls. There is little doubt about which posters fall under that heading.

When he feels better, he can revert to his normal monopoly of banning power.

I think those who think this way should tell Shades their views via PM, as well as on the board. I'm sure he will do the right thing in the end.

[Kishkumen]

I entirely agree, but my strategy was called off and not allowed. I said this several weeks ago, and apparently the community isn't as important anymore as the rule of total free speech with no consequences. If trolls are not put in check, no message board can survive. I never, ever, EVER thought I'd say this, but damn, maybe the censorship of the old FAIR board IS the best way to go. Give total freedom, and we end up with total chaos and trolling. If our community isn't worth keeping happy, then someone needs to develop another messageboard where the rest of us can go which WILL be controlled from obvious blatant trolling.

We can keep trying, Philo. I will keep trying.

[Philo Sofee]

Shades is evidently out of sorts.

He just needs to give the mods discretion to impose a ban on persistent trolls. There is little doubt about which posters fall under that heading.

When he feels better, he can revert to his normal monopoly of banning power.

I think those who think this way should tell Shades their views via PM, as well as on the board. I'm sure he will do the right thing in the end.

Not a bad suggestion actually... I 2nd it.

[Philo Sofee]

I entirely agree, but my strategy was called off and not allowed. I said this several weeks ago, and apparently the community isn't as important anymore as the rule of total free speech with no consequences. If trolls are not put in check, no message board can survive. I never, ever, EVER thought I'd say this, but damn, maybe the censorship of the old FAIR board IS the best way to go. Give total freedom, and we end up with total chaos and trolling. If our community isn't worth keeping happy, then someone needs to develop another messageboard where the rest of us can go which WILL be controlled from obvious blatant trolling.

We can keep trying, Philo. I will keep trying.

Indeed, we will do so.

[Philo Sofee]

When the Constitution became outdated through time in certain regards, we have brought forth amendments to it. I suggest the same for the philosophy of Shades view of free speech and no censorship. Obviously we need to amend the free speech thing as to not include trolling. Is trolling now more important to retain free speech than a normal form of discourse with all its agreements as well as disagreements? So worse for the board. EVERYONE here sees who the trolls are, and yet they run amok? Would that be allowed in America? Why is it allowed here on the board? I'm just asking. It seems AM pushes buttons with his claim this is an echo chamber. ALL message boards are such, so lets admit it, and kick him out of ours. There is no problem with that in my opinion. EVERY university in America can be accused (with some justification) of being an echo chamber, but they don't let students take over the professors courses and disrupt all classes all over campus. We don't care what AM thinks we care what AM DOES. DISRUPTION NEEDS PUNISHED THROUGH EXILE.

[Some Schmo]

He just needs to give the mods discretion to impose a ban on persistent trolls. There is little doubt about which posters fall under that heading.

When he feels better, he can revert to his normal monopoly of banning power.

I think those who think this way should tell Shades their views via PM, as well as on the board. I'm sure he will do the right thing in the end.

This seems to be the emerging consensus. I think the new mods are doing a great job within the confines of their power. Their power should be expanded.

I mean, if Shades is going though something right now (and all signs point to that) then why does he resist lightning his load here? There's no shame in that. Life comes first. I honestly don't get it, unless he is sympathetic to AM's goals to drive everyone away.

[Kukulkan]

As someone who has joined fairly recently in comparison to others, it is sad to see the board descend into the state that it has as of late. I think Dr. Shades needs to realize this is no longer a 'free speech' issue when those are using that reasoning to purposefully antagonize members on the board. I don't think people are reacting the way they are for just any reason. There seems to be a fairly large consensus that the actions of AM and other is beyond 'free speech' and has entered the territory of trolling.

I feel a good example is Ajax. He is obviously not very liked on this board but from what I can tell he posts and generally engages with what he posts about. People disagree with him strongly, but his intentions seem 'purer' then that of AM and company. Again, I am fairly new here in relation to others so maybe my interpretation is all wrong. But Dr. Shades if you are reading these threads, something needs to be done.

As hard as it is, DON'T feed the trolls. DON'T engage with them. Even if it means threads are ruined by their posting for a while. AM and company are only here because of the reactions they get. DON'T give them what they want.

[honorentheos]

As someone who has joined fairly recently in comparison to others, it is sad to see the board descend into the state that it has as of late. I think Dr. Shades needs to realize this is no longer a 'free speech' issue when those are using that reasoning to purposefully antagonize members on the board. I don't think people are reacting the way they are for just any reason. There seems to be a fairly large consensus that the actions of AM and other is beyond 'free speech' and has entered the territory of trolling.

I feel a good example is Ajax. He is obviously not very liked on this board but from what I can tell he posts and generally engages with what he posts about. People disagree with him strongly, but his intentions seem 'purer' then that of AM and company. Again, I am fairly new here in relation to others so maybe my interpretation is all wrong. But Dr. Shades if you are reading these threads, something needs to be done.

As hard as it is, DON'T feed the trolls. DON'T engage with them. Even if it means threads are ruined by their posting for a while. AM and company are only here because of the reactions they get. DON'T give them what they want.

There is always a distinction between freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas. The former is silent on the question of quality while the latter is, definitionally, reliant on there being both ideas and also interest in articulating/defending/engaging the ideas being presented. In functional societies the distinction is largely semantics as there are norms and values that discourage intellectual vandalism that has no more purpose than someone drawing a penis on everything they see because they just so happen to have a black Sharpie and no conscience. Where those norms and values no longer hold, or are not recognized, one is forced to confront this difference. Just as some may not advocate for violence and be for non-violence, it is no hypocrisy to recognize that threats to social order make demands that, goddess willing, are temporary and unfortunately needed to restore those norms and values.

I don't think the solution is to elevate someone to being the wielder of the board's ban hammer. Between the three active moderators we have, I feel all three are better than most in recognizing the dangers of personal bias and emotional reaction to sufficient degree that were all three to discuss and agree that an action were needed for the good of the board, they'd probably do better at it than our lone chief executive because, frankly, history isn't kind when it comes to having a great, all-powerful leader as the model. Plus, I suspect Res, Xeno, and Canpakes would likely seek the input of the community in making decisions that they would take quite seriously into consideration while also weighing the greater consequences of opening a particular Pandora's Box.

In short, the divide that is our board government should, in my opinion, be co-equal branches rather than a symbolic three-person executive acting out the will of a single person legislative branch.

Now, that doesn't really solve anything, in my opinion. It just bandages a critical, acute problem in the person of one distruptive poster who lacks coherent political ideological views. To the people they think they are speaking to reading the board but not participating, I'm sorry if you identify as a conservative and this person claims to represent you. It would be a terribly sad commentary on the state of American Conservatism were that true.

So many years ago, I spent a summer working as a herbicide/fertilizer applicator for a landscape maintenance company. It required taking a test to be licensed to apply herbicides commercially and was, as can be imagined, not too different in format from the test one takes to receive a drivers license. One thing that stuck with me from the experience was the overarching statement that the best defense against invasive weeds was a healthy lawn/landscape. Chemical remedies always came with negative additional effects, be they potential injury to desirable plants, killing helpful insects, build-up of toxins in the soils over time, or any other number of consequences.

Likewise, I do believe the best solution to the problem apparently of top concern is collective willingness to engage ideas. If the board is reduced to talking about talking about people, after passing through the threshold of just being a vehicle for talking about people, then there isn't anything really worth defending anyway, is there?

I'd be curious to know what books others have read recently? What places others have visited? What topic engaged them beyond a Buzzfeed headline or a quippy TicTok meme? What's new?

Last book I read: The Framer's Coup. Could I write more about it? Oh yeah. It's a book worth reading.
We spent some time up in Payson, AZ this winter that was a new place for us. Could I write more about it? Maybe.
Topic? The origins of Dubstep. Found out the artist Burial is my personal soundtrack.
Decided I wanted to play more D&D, found a local web group that I used to find a game and have been playing regularly with people I didn't know three months before. Won a couple of awards for work stuff. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer, went on a roller coaster ride, prognosis very positive but not an experience I'd wish on anyone. She's a light in a dark world in so many ways.

I don't know. There has to be more to talk about than some dude who doesn't have anything more to say than the message board is an echo chamber while not being able to articulate a coherent argument for conservatism because he isn't one. I mean, dude wasn't Mormon enough to keep his dick in his pants long enough he could be worthy to serve a mission because that would be a sacrifice. And now he's an adult he's all pro-Mormonism and "God, Guns, and Anti-Gays" because again, don't ask him to do anything that is for a greater cause than his own adolescent narcissism. Privileged narcissism isn't conservatism. The only people who ever defended conservatism on the board, as an actual political ideology that wasn't some thin centered masking of their own self-interest and fear, rarely posted on this forum. American conservatism is largely lost. American liberalism isn't far behind. Political identity is not a basis for reforming a relatively healthy board culture.

Having ideas, being willing to engage in the exchange of those ideas rather than just talking about the poster involved? It's the only real, long term solution. People should really look inward and ask what they are posting that isn't just people talking about people talking about people. That problem is bigger and much more prolific than just dude. And that is what lets the weeds get a hold and take over.