Belief in God

[Jersey Girl]

HELLO chopped liver asked some questions over here.

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No.

Sometimes. Not seriously.

Yes, but again not seriously. I find that I doubt almost anything anymore. But I have made a conscious decision to believe God exists. I don't see any other belief I can have that is as productive.

Like I said, I can't think of a more productive belief than a belief in God, and I'm testing that hypothesis by asking people for reasons why I shouldn't believe in God.

Your thread topics and your answers are failing to land on me. I don't see anything at the moment with which to engage but I'll try something.

You say, "Like I said, I can't think of a more productive belief than a belief in God"

Productive in what way? What does a belief in God produce in you or for you, or produce in your life or perhaps even in the world? What is God's product in your life?

[Some Schmo]

Why shouldn't I believe in God?

For one thing, the universe makes way more sense without some magic intervening entity. God belief makes all the world's needless pain exceptionally confusing.

If there's a god, he's a piece of crap. If it came down to preference (rather than a look at the evidence), I'd rather believe it's all random. Thinking there's a god allowing the earth to happen as it is only leads to imagining a sick, sadistic bastard (or, at best, something that created and forgot about us). But, of course, I don't believe in those versions of a god either.

I have no need for the god hypothesis. I'm not the first to say it.

But really, it's not about reasons not to believe. I don't deny the existence of a god, per se. I deny anyone's idea of a god that I've ever heard, in addition to the one I made up when I was a kid. I wouldn't supply reasons why you shouldn't believe in a god. I would ask you to question every idea of god you've ever heard, that's all. I would start by questioning why you believe in a god, whether you really need one. Because ultimately, all god ideas were made up by humans, and the idea of a god you have is your own creation as well (or perhaps more accurately, you've created a picture of a god augmented by other people's stencils).

One thing I'll add: if believing in a god helps you in some way and you keep it private, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Of course, I'd prefer a bit of perspective, but if you aren't harming anyone else (like trying to ban abortions, gay marriages, stem cell research, or impose any number of religious based ideas on the greater public), I don't see the god belief as that big a deal.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I mean. Incantations can be therapeutic.

- Doc

I respect you for where you’re at right now, I really do.

What does that even mean? Wait. Don’t answer that. Let’s just preemptively cut the Jesus word salad that’ll likely get posted.

- Doc

[Manetho]

I don't deny the existence of a god, per se. I deny anyone's idea of a god that I've ever heard, in addition to the one I made up when I was a kid. I wouldn't supply reasons why you shouldn't believe in a god. I would ask you to question every idea of god you've ever heard, that's all.

Agreed. I don't rule out the possibility that the universe has a supreme being, simply because the question of whether such a being exists is far above any human's pay grade. I personally find that question uninteresting, because we can't say anything meaningful about something so far beyond our understanding. But even if one were to assume that such a being exists, it does not follow that that being is anything like the supreme being found in any human religion. (I don't even want to refer to it as "God," because the term is so freighted with preconceptions from Abrahamic religions.)

Christianity and nonbelief are the only perspectives that have a widespread presence in American culture. So when they're doing apologetics, Christians will generally make philosophical arguments in favor of a supreme being and then take very few steps to get from "The universe has a supreme being" to "the Christian god is real". They more or less assume that the Christian, or at least Abrahamic, understanding of the supreme being is the only possible one. I find that very irritating.

[Chap]

I don't deny the existence of a god, per se. I deny anyone's idea of a god that I've ever heard, in addition to the one I made up when I was a kid. I wouldn't supply reasons why you shouldn't believe in a god. I would ask you to question every idea of god you've ever heard, that's all.

Agreed. I don't rule out the possibility that the universe has a supreme being, simply because the question of whether such a being exists is far above any human's pay grade. I personally find that question uninteresting, because we can't say anything meaningful about something so far beyond our understanding. But even if one were to assume that such a being exists, it does not follow that that being is anything like the supreme being found in any human religion. (I don't even want to refer to it as "God," because the term is so freighted with preconceptions from Abrahamic religions.)

Christianity and nonbelief are the only perspectives that have a widespread presence in American culture. So when they're doing apologetics, Christians will generally make philosophical arguments in favor of a supreme being and then take very few steps to get from "The universe has a supreme being" to "the Christian god is real". They more or less assume that the Christian, or at least Abrahamic, understanding of the supreme being is the only possible one. I find that very irritating.

Very nicely put! I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I decline to even appear to discuss whether 'God' exists. More neutral formulations are needed to avoid smuggling part of the conclusion into the question.

[Some Schmo]

Christianity and nonbelief are the only perspectives that have a widespread presence in American culture. So when they're doing apologetics, Christians will generally make philosophical arguments in favor of a supreme being and then take very few steps to get from "The universe has a supreme being" to "the Christian god is real". They more or less assume that the Christian, or at least Abrahamic, understanding of the supreme being is the only possible one. I find that very irritating.

Exactly. And that phenomenon also works to make god believers imagine they are all worshipping the same god in tacit agreement. They think they are all worshipping some external thing, rather than acknowledging they're worshipping a product of their own imagination, and that everyone's god is as unique as their personality.

I think they also feel like it isn't a product of their imagination because they heard someone else talking about their god. I didn't make up god; I was taught about him as a child. Sure, most people don't come up with the root god idea on their own, but they certainly embellish the myth in their own heads. Everybody who believes in a god has created fan fiction about it. Every assertion about a god is a work of fan fiction.

[msnobody]

I respect you for where you’re at right now, I really do.

What does that even mean? Wait. Don’t answer that. Let’s just preemptively cut the Jesus word salad that’ll likely get posted.

- Doc

No Jesus word salad or green Jello with shredded carrots.

I just saying that I understand what a faith crisis and its aftermath entails after leaving Mormonism, or even while still in and questioning.

[Some Schmo]

...faith crisis...

If there is such thing as a faith crisis, people are placing way too much importance on the idea of faith. That phrase sounds equivalent to a sports fan crisis or a Star Wars plot crisis.

Is it a crisis to learn? To become aware? If it feels tragic to someone to lose a belief in something that's not real, then they are way too attached to their ideas and living an unnecessarily burdened life. You have to be able to change your mind.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

...faith crisis...

If there is such thing as a faith crisis, people are placing way too much importance on the idea of faith. That phrase sounds equivalent to a sports fan crisis or a Star Wars plot crisis.

Is it a crisis to learn? To become aware? If it feels tragic to someone to lose a belief in something that's not real, then they are way too attached to their ideas and living an unnecessarily burdened life. You have to be able to change your mind.

+1

I don’t even know what “faith crisis” would or could mean if it were directed toward me. I’ve worked through the judeochristian notion of spirituality a long time ago, and I’ve spent a fair amount of time learning about other faith and philosophical positions that have brought me clarity about this existence. If I had to sum up my view of this world it’d be, “It is what it is. Adjust accordingly.”

- Doc

[Some Schmo]

I don’t even know what “faith crisis” would or could mean if it were directed toward me.

I had a feeling you didn't have much of a problem with losing your religion, which is kind of what made me think of the post I made.

I mean, when I consider the phrase faith crisis all I can think of is how children get upset finding out Santa Claus isn't real. I suppose it could be quite the crisis if you've been holding on to dubious beliefs well into your adulthood. That represents a lot of thought investment, I guess.

There are two broad categories of reasons for being upset when you find out the god hypothesis is dubious: you no longer have the god crutch to lean on (existential crisis of a sort), or you're pissed you've been lied to and manipulated all this time (critical of humanity). Could be a combination of both, but only the first one applies to people who really cared their god existed.