Belief in God

[KevinSim]

Didn’t you know?

Touche! There's the problem with Evangelical Christianity in a nutshell. I never voted for the guy; I'm not that type of Christian.

[Jersey Girl]

I've returned as promised.

Understood. I know what it's like to juggle. Best wishes on all of the above!

Thanks!

Sure thing.

Still...in the interest of fairness, I'd have to say that from a sociological perspective I think that anyone (believer or non) can hold personal philosophies as to their contributions to others.

Do those contributions ever attempt to provide vital service for everybody? I think, deep down, we have an obligation to provide service for everybody.

What do you mean a vital service for everybody? Like what???

I do think that there are a multitude of atheistic type folks who volunteer, give of their time and financial resources, essentially lend the other guy a helping hand in large and small ways. I've seen it right on this board in their posts and when I've pushed fund raisers for disaster victims.

I say, more power to them. They're doing a good thing. But once again, are they helping everybody? I'm not saying anyone has to take on the responsibility of caring for everyone who will ever live. But we should take care of our own personal share of the (entire) human race's troubles. And who besides God knows what that personal share is?

Again, I have no idea what you mean by helping everybody. Look. If all self proclaimed Christians were living according to their faith, no one would be starving, living in cars, or that sort of thing.

I still don't know what you mean by helping everybody and I sure don't know what you mean by "personal share".

Wanting to help others in their various plights depends on empathy and compassion. I don't see that believers have more of those qualities than non-believers.

I never said they did.

I didn't SAY that you did. You asked at the start of this thread why you shouldn't hold a belief in God, did you not? You then went on to write THIS did you not?

When I say belief in God is the most productive choice I see I mean that if I can't believe in a good God to guide me, then I don't really see how I can fill my conscientious obligation to the rest of the human race. If I can't ask God some questions and count on God answering those questions, then how can I ever figure out what that obligation is? Atheism doesn't do me any good; my obligation is still there, and all atheism does is unload the whole weight of that obligation on my own shoulders, and my opinion is that that's too much weight for any individual to carry.

That's why I responded the way that I did above and as follows:

Wanting to help others in their various plights depends on empathy and compassion. I don't see that believers have more of those qualities than non-believers.

Try to keep up with the words that you yourself have posted. My replies are direct responses to YOUR statements.

Continuing on...

Why is that too much weight for you to carry?

Because taking care of everybody is a huge job. But it still has to he done.

There you go with the impossible premise of thinking you are charged with taking care of everybody. What do you mean and who do you think you are that you are charged with taking care of everybody??????

I'm really curious to see whatever other replies you got here and if anyone asked you why you need God for a crutch.

I need a crutch because I'm lame. And when it comes to fulfilling our obligation to the whole human race, aren't we all lame? Is there a better crutch for that task than God?

That was a smart ass comment I made there. It wasn't a question so why are you answering it?

I think the question you might ask yourself is what do you believe to be true about Jesus?

Jersey Girl, do you think that would be on topic?

Yes. Do you?

[Jersey Girl]

I want to reply to this. Pick me! Pick me!



Who creates the pain, inequality, and tragedy you are talking about?

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

That's crap.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

That's crap.

Kudu, “Well, at least my belief in the jewish Lord and Savior, yea even Jesus the Christ, makes this experience tolerable. Still hurts though.”

Lion, “I’m going to tear your guts open in about two seconds.”

Kudu, “That sounds unpleasant, but not as unpleasant as being removed from the jewish god’s Grace. Ouch!”

- Doc

[Some Schmo]

There are infinite reasons to think that if this earth is a planned thing, whoever planned it is an asshole.

The measure of a planner is not the quality of the outcome of the plan; the measure of a planner is that quality relative to what it could have been if the plan had not been carried out. Is the world really so bad that it could not have been worse?

Well, apparently, the planner and the one who executed that plan are the same thing. That is, unless you're saying you have two gods, one who was the architect and another to do the construction.

I suppose the world could be worse, but it could also be infinitely better. It is exactly how I would expect it to be, however, if it was just a naturally occurring planet, formed out of the natural laws of the universe with no planning or forethought.

[Some Schmo]

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you are alone.

Some Schmo, why should I believe that?

You have no good reason to believe otherwise, except for its utility and associated comfort, but certainly not for any truth value.

Thankfully, however, you aren't alone in that you have the people around you.

I'm not aware of any credible reports of a god visiting earth.

And therefore no deity has ever visited Earth? How does that follow?

It doesn't necessarily follow, but it does seem like a good reason to doubt.

No credible reports of Bigfoot have been reported. Should we assume Bigfoot exists anyway?

[Some Schmo]

There are several sources, the biggest one being Mother Nature.

That's crap.

Your unsupported assertion and denial of reality in this instance is crap.

So, I guess Hurricane Katrina wasn't a source of unnecessary pain? Or the source of Hurricane Katrina wasn't Mother Nature?

Or are you saying Mother Nature is a loving mother who would never cause any pain to her children?

Just wtf are you on about?

[Some Schmo]

As I mentioned upthread, I would never give people reasons to not believe in their god, but simply ask them to question the things they've heard.

But I can tell people one very good reason I don't believe in any gods: if a god did exist under the current circumstances, it seems to me it would be very disappointed in me believing in it given that it has supplied zero evidence of its existence. It would likely think I wasn't using the brain it gave me to think critically.

Making up gods is fun. I understand why people do it. Hell, I readily admit I enjoy the Thor movies. I just don't think people should take the Thor movies (or any other god stories) seriously.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

That's crap.

Your unsupported assertion and denial of reality in this instance is crap.

So, I guess Hurricane Katrina wasn't a source of unnecessary pain? Or the source of Hurricane Katrina wasn't Mother Nature?

Or are you saying Mother Nature is a loving mother who would never cause any pain to her children?

Just wtf are you on about?

Well. They worship a blood god. Think about that for a hot second.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

That's crap.

Your unsupported assertion and denial of reality in this instance is crap.

So, I guess Hurricane Katrina wasn't a source of unnecessary pain? Or the source of Hurricane Katrina wasn't Mother Nature?

Or are you saying Mother Nature is a loving mother who would never cause any pain to her children?

Just wtf are you on about?

Sorry about the crap answer I gave you. You want to know wtf I was on about? I was on the heels of trying to wade through a post by KevinSim (who bears a strong resemblance to Markk in his posting "style") and I blew you off in the process.

So yeah, Mother Nature and natural disasters.I agree those cause pain and suffering. I don't really think in terms of Mother Nature. I think of it as the natural world.

That said, I think there's two perspectives that a Christian can take on natural disasters.

1. The Creation is corrupted therefore God is outside of the Creation and can't control what happens on the inside so to speak.

2. God does influence the Creation including the natural world and therefore God does visit natural disasters on humankind as I guess, a demonstration of power.

Whew. Okay, how do I evaluate this as a Bible believer? Again, whew. I'll give it a go.

1. Debunked by the Bible itself where God does bring on The Flood, parts the waters through Moses, and Jesus's reported ability to calm the storm...and every other account of God directing the natural elements under the sun including the sun.

2. Proven by the Bible itself as per what I wrote about.

I'd have to go with 2. I also think that (and something you didn't cover or maybe were about to cover at some point) humans cause the majority of pain and suffering in the world due to human qualities such as greed.

I probably left loose ends in the above, feel free to press me further in that regard. I don't mind at all if you do so.