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I continue to feel frustrated with the dysfunctionality of US politics, and I feel like I really do not have a political home. From being a supporter of Bernie Sanders, I was pounded on for being a “Bernie Bro” (even among family) and, when he predictably did not get the nomination, I voted for Hillary Clinton, who was most certainly a highly competent technocrat but an abysmal politician. Predictably, again, she lost. As time wore on, I increasingly experienced a kind of endless circular firing squad in communities where I had once felt comfortable, and greater extremism and irrationality in causes I had supported, and to a large extent still do.

Now it has come to the point where I can hardly watch cable news at all, except in short stints. One of the problems right now is what seems to me to be the ludicrous attempt either to weaponize or to deny the existence of “wokeness.” The weaponization is a lot easier to carry out than the denial, since until the memo went out to deny it existed, people were quite proud to identify as “woke,” and recently Psaki even spent some time advocating flying the woke flag proudly. So, what is it about wokeness that makes it so concerning? Are there any grounds for being concerned? (And, interestingly, the concern is to be found on the Left as well as the Right.)

I was pleased to find a Leftist philosopher who has expended some effort in understanding and critiquing wokeness. Her name is Susan Neiman, and you can start to dip into her argument here:

https://youtu.be/OMU3qkKALj8

Thank you for this.

My pleasure, Morley.

I miss the days when conservative and leftist politics referenced economic views rather than cultural views. In no small part because, when referencing economics, the political tilt was an indicator of how much interference someone might tolerate primarily in reference to market behavior. When it comes to the culture wars, one can't really engage based on left- or right-lean, but needs to consider where on the authoritarian vs liberal axis a person resides.

I'd argue that's significantly more important than whether the views are culturally conservative or progressive now.

That's interesting, Reverend. I still don't fully grasp what "woke" means. While I know from what others have said that it originated as a positive term and then the religious right adopted it as an insult, I have never, not even once, heard anyone utter the term "woke" in the positive sense in real life, nor in any media that I've ever consumed. I was surprised to learn from your post that there is a positive base large enough to back a flag for their cause.

I'd just assumed that it was a small movement that the Right turned into a monster. I mean, I even read a CNN article from time to time, and I've never encountered somebody promoting being "woke". It's difficult for me to believe that there is such a large positive base in part because the word sounds so dumb.

I guess you and I are different in the respect that I really don't want a political home. I don't like politics that much and hope that we can flush these dumb asses that Ajax-types worship so I can go back ignoring it. I've actually had some new distractions recently and have not followed recent events at all. I haven't even clicked on late-night skewering of Trump over his indictment. I'd like to ride this wave for a little while longer before getting back into it again.

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:17 pm

I miss the days when conservative and leftist politics referenced economic views rather than cultural views. In no small part because, when referencing economics, the political tilt was an indicator of how much interference someone might tolerate primarily in reference to market behavior. When it comes to the culture wars, one can't really engage based on left- or right-lean, but needs to consider where on the authoritarian vs liberal axis a person resides.

I'd argue that's significantly more important than whether the views are culturally conservative or progressive now.

I agree. Issues of culture and identity dominate in large part because it serves as a convenient diversion from economic issues.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:08 pm

That's interesting, Reverend. I still don't fully grasp what "woke" means. While I know from what others have said that it originated as a positive term and then the religious right adopted it as an insult, I have never, not even once, heard anyone utter the term "woke" in the positive sense in real life, nor in any media that I've ever consumed. I was surprised to learn from your post that there is a positive base large enough to back a flag for their cause.

I'd just assumed that it was a small movement that the Right turned into a monster. I mean, I even read a CNN article from time to time, and I've never encountered somebody promoting being "woke". It's difficult for me to believe that there is such a large positive base in part because the word sounds so dumb.

I guess you and I are different in the respect that I really don't want a political home. I don't like politics that much and hope that we can flush these dumb asses that Ajax-types worship so I can go back ignoring it. I've actually had some new distractions recently and have not followed recent events at all. I haven't even clicked on late-night skewering of Trump over his indictment. I'd like to ride this wave for a little while longer before getting back into it again.

Great thoughts, Dean Robbers. I think that at this point I don’t expect to find a new political home. I sorta rushed over to the Democrats as a saner alternative after the invasion of Iraq and what seemed to me to be the increasingly bizarre Bush White House. Before that time I had been a registered Republican, but my family has a tradition of not being so committed to a party. I don’t think my dad ever registered as anything, and I think that suits me better.

Every time I thought of joining a party, my distaste for it was aroused by someone who argued an issue according to the internal logic of party politics as opposed to good sense or sound policy. You know, “We can’t say x because the party . . . .” It was the whole Bernie thing that I think did me in for good. It was both the stupidity of the Clinton candidacy and the uninformed optimism of the Bernie crowd who thought the DNC would run a fair and aboveboard primary that snuffed out any thoughts I might have entertained about joining the Democratic Party.

I think wokeness is a reasonable shorthand term for leftist identitarian politics. It works much better than antifa as a term to smack Democrats with because only so many people were actually going out to punch Neo-Nazis. Woke works for the gamut of identity issues that most Democrats at least pay lip service to. It is interesting that Democrats have not found an equivalent slur for Republicans other than fascist. And the problem with that is that Republicans can always point to historical fascism as something quite different from what they have going now. No Republican would have ever copped to being fascist, whereas, for a time at least, a fair number of young and not so young liberals aspired to being “woke.”

By the way, another opponent of identity politics on the Left, at least as it is popularly manifested, is Slavoj Zižek

See: Why white liberals love identity politics https://youtu.be/472lCEy4dBw

See on political correctness: https://youtu.be/5dNbWGaaxWM

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:08 pm

That's interesting, Reverend. I still don't fully grasp what "woke" means.

The right doesn't know what woke means either. It's essentially the label they've applied to the undefined danger they imagine people who don't think like them represent to the country. A woman wrote a book on it and couldn't even define it when asked.

It's right-wing for boogieman.

I'm all for focusing on economic issues rather than petty differences the mainstream media pushes. Let's look at the concentration of wealth at the top that has steadily risen for the past 50 years. Is it good to have Blackrock and Vanguard own everything? Why haven't wages kept up with inflation during this time? What are the causes? How can anti-trust enforcement aid in solving these problems? Is it good to have everything manufactured overseas?