You're Wrong

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Manetho
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Manetho »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:18 am
So progressuves should have no problem banning abortions after a fetus is 6 months old or more? Nonsense, huh?
A ban on abortions after six months, except in cases like Chap describes ("when there is a direct choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus, or when the fetus is so grossly abnormal that it is incapable of surviving outside the womb and can only suffer an agonising death if it is born normally"), is exactly what Roe v. Wade allowed.
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Some Schmo
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:11 am
I'm guessing you think some people are religiously devoted to Trump. If they can be religious in their political pursuits then it can follow other people can too.
The religious devotion to Trump is unique, though. It's an actual cult. They ignore all his faults, keeps themselves insulated from any opposing viewpoints and believe obvious falsehoods. There are far more than a handful of people who actually see him in a divine light, which is clearly laughable, and yet it's more common than should make anyone comfortable.

The problem with equating these kinds of problems between the right and the left is that people on the right are way more likely to jump aboard the prevailing right-wing narrative. The left is composed of more factions within the party, so any religious type devotion that pops up is smaller, more personal, and way less a threat to everyone else. The right has a way of blowing everything the left says and does out of proportion, because fear is the primary right wing weapon.

I've said it many times before; I don't believe what people on the right say any more. I don't think they try to express things accurately because it doesn't inspire the required, strategic fear needed to move the GOP base. They've lied and exaggerated so much for so long that what they say is barely even qualifies as a caricature of reality.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

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Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:01 pm
I don't believe what people on the right say any more. I don't think they try to express things accurately because it doesn't inspire the required, strategic fear needed to move the GOP base. They've lied and exaggerated so much for so long that what they say is barely even qualifies as a caricature of reality.
These are the EXACT words people on the right use about the progressive left. Failure to see the faults in our own tribes is what leads to religious devotion in politics. (also politics is replacing religion for many people)
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Some Schmo
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Re: You're Wrong

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Tim wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:18 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:01 pm
I don't believe what people on the right say any more. I don't think they try to express things accurately because it doesn't inspire the required, strategic fear needed to move the GOP base. They've lied and exaggerated so much for so long that what they say is barely even qualifies as a caricature of reality.
These are the EXACT words people on the right use about the progressive left. Failure to see the faults in our own tribes is what leads to religious devotion in politics. (also politics is replacing religion for many people)
Well, I don't have a tribe. I call both sides as I see them. The left has its problems, for sure, but there's no solving them until they're reported accurately.

And for the right to say they don't believe the left for the reasons I stated, well... see the thread on how every right wing accusation is really a confession (or in this case, pure projection).
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
Vēritās
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Vēritās »

Tim wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:11 am
Vēritās wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:45 am
I consider myself woke, but I would love for Tim or anyone else for that matter to explain to me how my wokeness is like a religious thing. Calling it religious like is just silly, and is relayed from right wing mischaracterizations.
I don't know you so I have no idea how religious your pursuit of diversity, equity, and inclusion are. I would consider it "religious-like" if the methods you employ in pursuit of those virtues couldn't be questioned or challenged and you in turned dismissed the concerns raised by other virtues.

I'm guessing you think some people are religiously devoted to Trump. If they can be religious in their political pursuits then it can follow other people can too.
Can and are aren't synonymous. I can't even begin to imagine in what way wokeness could be religious.

Wokeness is simply an acknowledgment and awareness that there are social injustices in the world. Calling it religious doesn't make any sense, and comparing it to the MAGA cult is even more ridiculous. The MAGA cult literally has a person whom they worship. Even after he's elected they continue to hold rallies for him just because they consider it an emotional/spiritual experience. Praising him and attacking anyone who doesn't literally consumes them and they've made it part of who they are, their literal identity. Many of them even claim Jesus has personally called him to save us all, and they have stated that no matter the evidence against him, they'll support him no matter what.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
Vēritās
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Vēritās »

Tim wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:18 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:01 pm
I don't believe what people on the right say any more. I don't think they try to express things accurately because it doesn't inspire the required, strategic fear needed to move the GOP base. They've lied and exaggerated so much for so long that what they say is barely even qualifies as a caricature of reality.
These are the EXACT words people on the right use about the progressive left. Failure to see the faults in our own tribes is what leads to religious devotion in politics. (also politics is replacing religion for many people)
So the cult members on the right project what they are onto them left, therefore both sides are the same? Do you even try to sift through the evidence and nuance to make a determination for yourself, or are you just satisfied with the assumption that both sides are the same in all aspects simply because each side makes accusations?

It doesn't require a "tribe" to acknowledge the dangers of Trumpism. Hell, there is an entire movement within the Republican party itself that is trying to save itself from Trumpism. Just look at all of the people running against him, the numerous Conservatives intellectuals like George Will and the Lincoln Project. Are they all part of the leftist "tribe" too?
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
Vēritās
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Vēritās »

Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:35 pm
see the thread on how every right wing accusation is really a confession (or in this case, pure projection).

For real: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=157321
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
Chap
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Chap »

Manetho wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:45 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:18 am
So progressuves should have no problem banning abortions after a fetus is 6 months old or more? Nonsense, huh?
A ban on abortions after six months, except in cases like Chap describes ("when there is a direct choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus, or when the fetus is so grossly abnormal that it is incapable of surviving outside the womb and can only suffer an agonising death if it is born normally"), is exactly what Roe v. Wade allowed.
Thanks for relieving me of the task of replying! Fortunately I am not about to propose a new law on this topic, whether in the US or elsewhere, so I don't have to choose some rigid cut off point. But, like many others I suspect, my support for abortion rights begins to reduce (NB I do not say 'cease altogether') in cases where we begin to be dealing with a normal and healthy fetus which, while not yet at full term, would have a good chance of survival if it was born prematurely. Countervailing factors include, as ever, the possibility that going to full term is highly likely to be dangerous to the mother's life. And so on.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Tim »

Saying that "some people on the Left have a religious devotion to their politics just like some people on the Right have a religious devotion to their politics" is NOT the same thing as saying they are both equally destructive at the same rate or volume or that we can ignore one or the other. All it means is that some people substitute religion with politics. Both Anglicanism and Radical Islamism are religions, they provoke people to different things, that doesn't mean they both aren't religions.

OF COURSE people can oppose Trump with out being religiously leftist. OF COURSE you can lean politically left without being religiously leftist. OF COURSE you can be committed to socialism without be religiously leftist. But when it comes to knocking over straw men, you guys are undefeated.
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Tim
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Re: You're Wrong

Post by Tim »

From Robert P George:

Q. How do you define "Woke"?
A. The attitude of a person who regards his or her opinions as so obviously correct and so profoundly enlightened that they may not legitimately be doubted or challenged, and that only hate or bigotry can explain others' holding different beliefs.
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