The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

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The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by Gunnar »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/th ... r-AA1nJbbc
Brynn Tannehill wrote:This week, the Supreme Court managed to fail to meet the already extremely low expectations most sane people already had for it. First, during the Idaho EMTALA case on whether hospitals receiving federal funding can refuse to provide abortions to women who are actively dying as a result of a pregnancy, we heard debate on which, and how many, organs a woman had to lose before an abortion becomes legally acceptable. By all appearances during oral arguments, it looks as though the court is going to gut the already laughably weak “life of the mother” protections by a 5-4 vote.

They followed this abysmal performance up with hearing the Trump immunity case the next day, and the comportment of the same five male, conservative justices was even worse. When Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked Donald Trump’s lawyer, “If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity?”, he replied, “It would depend on the hypothetical, but we can see that would well be an official act.”

Based on that one line of questioning, Trump’s argument should be going down in flames 9-0. A democracy cannot survive when its supreme leader can arbitrarily decide that it’s in the nation’s best interest to rub out his opponents, and then leave it to some future court to decide whether it was an official act, because he’ll get away with it as long as there aren’t 67 votes in the Senate to impeach. And given that it will have been established that the president can put out a contract on political foes, how many senators are going to vote to impeach?
I agree with Ms. Tannehill that merely the fact alone that Trump's argument is not "going down in flames 9-0" is scandalous enough, even if it were defeated! Does anyone fail to see that giving any sitting president immunity even against prosecution for assassinating his political opponents will practically guarantee that our beloved nation will eventually devolve into an absolute despotism--even if Trump loses this election? That anyone stupid and/or corrupt enough to approve of that position managed to get to be a Supreme Court Justice is appalling and sorrowful!
But the justices did not laugh this argument out of court. Quite the contrary: At least five of the justices seemed to buy into the Trump team’s arguments that the power of the office of the president must be protected from malicious and politicized litigation. They were uninterested in the actual case at hand or its consequences. Elie Mystal, justice correspondent at The Nation, perhaps captured my response to the Supreme Courts’ arguments best: “I am in shock that a lawyer stood in the U.S Supreme Court and said that a president could assassinate his political opponent and it would be immune as ‘an official act.’ I am in despair that several Justices seemed to think this answer made perfect sense.”
Even if a political opponent were proven to be corrupt, allowing the President to order that opponent be peremptorily assassinated should be unacceptable. If the claim that a President is entitled to such absolute immunity stands, what would prevent Biden from having Trump assassinated if he perceived that Trump (whom Biden with very good reason believes is as corrupt as they come) were likely to win the coming election?
These justices’ foolishness lies in their lack of foresight as to what happens if Trump wins in 2024. In the justice’s efforts to ensure that they are the most powerful branch of government, they are about to make it the weakest. They are creating a win-win situation for Trump, and a lose-lose for themselves. When Trump is president again, he is likely to believe that he has the option of “removing” any member of the Supreme Court who defies him. As long as the court doesn’t rule against him, they’re fine. From the court’s perspective, they either end up neutered lap dogs of a despot, who do whatever they’re told out of fear, or they defy him and end up somewhere… unpleasant (at best). Taking a dirt nap at worst. After all, if Trump can rub out a political opponent, can’t he do the same to an uncooperative jurist?

The Roberts Court surely believes that Trump would never stoop to this—that the sanctity of court and the laws and norms of our democracy will protect them. Anyone who has spent 10 minutes studying how democracies collapse knows this is idiotic, but it stems from their own hubristic belief that the court is so powerful and respected that it is immune to everything. They believe the respect for the institution will ensure their power endures.

Are these Justices so underinformed that they are unaware that public respect for their institution is currently already at a low time ebb because of some of their recent rulings?
In the end, the court appears to be doing everything to destroy itself, democracy, and the union, with its own arrogance and lack of foresight. They’ve either castrated themselves, and in the process doomed the country, or signed their own death warrants.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat Apr 27, 2024 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

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They haven't reached a decision yet, have they? If not, how can the court have "just sealed everyone's fate?"
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by Dr Exiled »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:25 am
They haven't reached a decision yet, have they? If not, how can the court have "just sealed everyone's fate?"
This is an appeal to fear, politics as usual. Democracy isn't at stake if the population votes against the billionaire class and their chosen puppets. Neither is it at stake if the Supreme Court grants some immunity to a sitting president like Biden. Here is what another commentator said and it is probably more correct based on the lack of hyperbole:

https://jonathanturley.org/2024/04/26/f ... -immunity/

In the above article, Prof Turley says the Court will likely try and split the baby. Absolute immunity and no immunity are extremes argued in order to try and tilt the middle path one way or another.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

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Dr. Exiled wrote:Democracy isn't at stake if the population votes against the billionaire class and their chosen puppets.
Except they only think they are voting against the billionaire class and the chosen puppets when in actuality, they are voting for the billionaire class and its chosen puppet. You'd think it would be obvious given the chosen puppet is also a billionaire who just came out of a billionaire fund raiser bragging about the millions that were raised. And given the first thing he did in office was pass tax reform from the RINO's that was hugely regressive, the richer, the more benefit.

Part two is about the problem of self-reference and contradiction. If I say "this sentence is false" -- what does that really mean? If a president is elected democratically, but then figures out how to subvert the system and stay in power beyond his term, is it still a democracy? Is Russia still a democracy because Putin won his first election fairly (at least I think so)? Even weirder, what if people in general who are voting for a shameless autocrat actually want a dictatorship, with their guy in charge permanently? Is it still a democracy if the majority decide they want a king?

One thing that the last few years has taught me is how unnatural democracy really is. It's always seemed so obvious and natural, but in reality, what's more obvious is how prone to mob mentality people are, and how easy that is to exploit.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by yellowstone123 »

I think Trump is immune from certain acts he does as a president like taking out the Revolutionary Guard Commander Qasen Soleimani. For me that is/was pushing the limits. If we were waging war in Iran then of course he’s a legit target, just like Trump would be to Iran.

I read something about Justice Kagan who questioned something like the following: Could a sitting president order a military coup on January 6th and be immune? All though one can be a proponent of one party or the other, I can say that when it comes to high crimes, that both the House and Senate will join to impeach and vote. But that’s if there still remains a U.S. House and U.S. Senate after a military coup or a type of self-coup people believe Trump tried to put into action.

*to be continued*
“one of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by yellowstone123 »

I do believe this that the first impeachment trial was a witch-hunt. One of the squad when she took office the first day of the new congress said lets go impeach the m’thr fkr. The first impeachment was a clown-show- case and they would never get a conviction with McConnell as the majority leader of the Senate and those who were under his influence. The second impeachment was about the January 6th 2021, debacle. I believe they did it to prevent a second presidency in the future. I’m not too sure about timelines if the senate could convict after he left office to prevent him from being reelected in four years.

In the God Father the famous line, “It’s not personal, it’s business”. I would say the first impeachment was personal. The second one had merit, but someone needs to explain the process, likely Res Ipsa.

The shame of the United States Government to create kangaroo courts for some of those entering the capital especially Mr. Antler with his red, white and blue face was heart breaking and he should have sued his attorney for malpractice. First, he needed to be assessed by a psychiatrist from the prosecution side and those of the defense. But I don’t think he ever saw one or anyone to deal with his mental health issue.It was a shark frenzy by the media, likely told to plead guilty by his attorney to avoid a longer sentence if he went to trial. He sat in jail and then prison without the needed mental health help.

Trump may be immune to certain things as president but not all. He can’t do what President Nixon did who we all know resigned before impeachment. He can’t break the law while in office, and if he did and it was not a witch hunt, and obvious, both the House and the Senate would convict. I actually believe in the process.

*To be continued
Last edited by yellowstone123 on Sat Apr 27, 2024 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“one of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by Res Ipsa »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:28 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:25 am
They haven't reached a decision yet, have they? If not, how can the court have "just sealed everyone's fate?"
This is an appeal to fear, politics as usual. Democracy isn't at stake if the population votes against the billionaire class and their chosen puppets. Neither is it at stake if the Supreme Court grants some immunity to a sitting president like Biden. Here is what another commentator said and it is probably more correct based on the lack of hyperbole:

https://jonathanturley.org/2024/04/26/f ... -immunity/

In the above article, Prof Turley says the Court will likely try and split the baby. Absolute immunity and no immunity are extremes argued in order to try and tilt the middle path one way or another.
I don't understand what the billionaire class and puppets has to do with these cases, given that we can't vote against Clarence Thomas. ;) ;) ;)

I agree with you that this piece is political fear mongering of the kind I expect to see from Fox News. Ms. Tannehill doesn't seem to understand what Justices typically do during oral argument. In general, they are acutely aware of the law of unintended consequences (unless they slept through law school), and so they will ask questions at the extremes and at the edge of any proposed boundaries. Even experienced court watchers make incorrect predictions base on what they see and hear in oral arguments.

SCOTUSblog is a good place to find summaries and analyses of Supreme Court oral argument. Here's the one for the EMTALA case. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/04/supr ... rtion-ban/ Contrary to Ms. Tannehill's claim, the case has nothing to do with "gutting" the "life of the mother" protection. The Idaho statute permits abortions when necessary to save the life of the mother. What's at stake is the difference between "necessary to save the life of the mother" and "necessary to stabilize the condition of the mother before transferring the mother to another hospital."

Idaho and other states are going to have come to grips with the consequences of their religiously motivated intrusion into medicine. To date, Idaho has lost about 25% of its obstetricians. Given a choice between watching patients suffer and unnecessarily risking both their life and health and going to jail, many take the sensible third option -- change specialties or move. The result is reduced availability of pre-natal care for all mothers. Yay! more health problems for all mothers and children. But they got what they've always said they wanted, and they're going have to deal with the fallout. Even if the Court holds that EMTALA preempts state anti-abortion laws, that won't fix the negative consequences of the laws.

On the immunity issue, although I rarely agree with Turley, I think his analysis is spot on (except for his political rant against DA Bragg). This is terra incognito for our country, and anyone who claims that the answer is obvious doesn't understand the issue. Gunnar, suppose the Court agrees with you that any result other than no immunity would be absurd, what would happen to Joe Biden if Trump wins the election? Given his revenge rhetoric, what are the odds that he would trump up criminal charges against Biden and order his politicized DOJ to prosecute with all its resources? I'd say approaching 100%.

Now, rather than rely on Ms. Tannehill's claims, read a summary of what the Court is actually grappling with: https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/04/supr ... -immunity/ The Court is acutely aware that this case is a BFD and smack dab in the center of a Constitutional minefield. There are significant separation of powers issues: to what extent does the Congress have the Constitutional power to criminalize the exercise of powers specifically given to the executive branch in the Constitution? The case that will likely trouble the Justices the most is the President carrying out his duties as commander in chief. But let's take an extreme case -- shouldn't the President be able to exercise his veto power without having to worry about possible criminal prosecution by the next President? Don't we want the President to be thinking about what is in the best interest of the country instead of how to cover his ass to avoid criminal prosecution?

The pressure to try Trump before the election is a purely political issue that the Court should not consider at all. This may be, Constitutionally, the most important decision this Court will be faced with making. Its worst decisions have come when it moves quickly (shadow docket, anyone?). It should take the time it needs to get this issue right. I think that involves finding some type of immunity (whether absolute or qualified) over at least core powers given to the executive branch by the Constitution and a delineation of the boundary between protected and non-protected conduct, followed by a remand to the District Court to apply the law as defined by the Court. That may very well result in another trip up to the Supreme Court. So be it. Getting this issue right is far more important than getting it done quickly.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by Res Ipsa »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 4:01 pm
Dr. Exiled wrote:Democracy isn't at stake if the population votes against the billionaire class and their chosen puppets.
Except they only think they are voting against the billionaire class and the chosen puppets when in actuality, they are voting for the billionaire class and its chosen puppet. You'd think it would be obvious given the chosen puppet is also a billionaire who just came out of a billionaire fund raiser bragging about the millions that were raised. And given the first thing he did in office was pass tax reform from the RINO's that was hugely regressive, the richer, the more benefit.

Part two is about the problem of self-reference and contradiction. If I say "this sentence is false" -- what does that really mean? If a president is elected democratically, but then figures out how to subvert the system and stay in power beyond his term, is it still a democracy? Is Russia still a democracy because Putin won his first election fairly (at least I think so)? Even weirder, what if people in general who are voting for a shameless autocrat actually want a dictatorship, with their guy in charge permanently? Is it still a democracy if the majority decide they want a king?

One thing that the last few years has taught me is how unnatural democracy really is. It's always seemed so obvious and natural, but in reality, what's more obvious is how prone to mob mentality people are, and how easy that is to exploit.
We ignore the fragility of our democracy at our peril.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by Res Ipsa »

yellowstone123 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 4:43 pm
I do believe this that the first impeachment trial was a witch-hunt. One of the squad when she took office the first day of the new congress said lets go impeach the m’thr fkr. The first impeachment was a clown-show- case and they would never get a conviction with McConnell as the majority leader of the Senate and those who were under his influence. The second impeachment was about the January 6th 2020, debacle. I believe they did it to prevent a second presidency in the future. I’m not too sure about timelines if the senate could convict after he left office to prevent him from being reelected in four years.

In the God Father the famous line, “It’s not personal, it’s business”. I would say the first impeachment was personal. The second one had merit, but someone needs to explain the process, likely Res Ipsa.

The shame of the United States Government to create kangaroo courts for some of those entering the capital especially Mr. Antler with his red, white and blue face was heart breaking and he should have sued his attorney for malpractice. First, he needed to be assessed by psychiatrist from the prosecution side and those of the defense. But I don’t think he ever saw one or anyone to deal with his mental health issue.It was a shark frenzy by the media, likely told to plead guilty by his attorney to avoid a longer sentence if he went to trial. He sat in jail and then prison without the needed mental health help.

Trump may be immune to certain things as president but not all. He can’t do what President Nixon did who we all know resigned before impeachment. He can’t break the law while in office, and if he did and it was not a witch hunt, and obvious, both the House and the Senate would convict. I actually believe in the process.

*To be continued
You should have to say my name three times to get me to appear... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've got to rush off to an appointment. The short, superficial answer is that impeachment is a political remedy, so politics will always be involved. I'll try to give you a better response when I get home.
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Re: The Court Just Sealed Everyone’s Fate, Including Its Own

Post by yellowstone123 »

The Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal issues were before he took office. I said before the Stormy Daniels issue will fall flat, but Karen McDougall will take him out of running for president.

Other issue such as inflating prices of property for more favored loans (I believe that’s the issue and are being tried in New York.) Perhaps he was immune to prosecution if done during his presidency but after January 6th, 2021, he was open season for prosecutors for conduct prior to his presidency and even after. If he lied during his presidency and inflated the prices I believe even the republicans in the senate would vote to convict in what would be his third impeachment trial, if in some way he is/was reelected.

Finally, people think it’s just Trump, and in a way it is, but I always say it's Trump, the machine, meaning his appointments of secretary of this and that and the staff (parts) needed by the whole machine to carry out their purpose/plan, some of which are taking a big ax to polices, plans and acts of the prior president.

*The end*
“one of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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