Libertarian Fools' Paradise

[Kishkumen]

Never heard it worded this way. I can visualise that as making sense. I wouldn't be quick to assume that the east isn't a successful civilisation in its own right. I also wouldn't assume that is is fair (not sure is it should be fare, bit tired), to accuse people who are ignorant or inexperienced as taking it for granted. We only know what we know or what we have been led to believe. I also think it isn't good to accuse children of ignoring, neglecting and denigrating institutions. I doubt they have that much influence that it would matter. But they don't know. Not all children fight against the institution. But all adults were once children and they grow up and become part of the system.

Paine speaks in pretty stark and bold terms. I can see why that is grating. There is a level at which one chooses to identify words like ignorant as insults or facts. One can be called ignorant of something without any intent to blame the person for being ignorant. I am ignorant of many things, but it does sting to have someone call me out for being ignorant of something. In certain kinds of conversations, I want to be able to set social concerns aside for a moment and talk about a set of facts and models that we can use to organize them. As soon as we get into conversations about whether east or west is better, or whether saying someone is ignorant is an insult, the topic inevitably changes to whether we are being decent people by even having a conversation. I think it is possible to talk about east and west, and knowledge versus ignorance, without blaming people.

I look at our level of individualism in the United States as a luxury that ultimately undermines civilization. I don’t blame myself for being individualistic. I see why I am. I also see how that is a problem. But, I find the whole thing attractive. There was a wonderful documentary about a libertarian BitCoin utopia in South America that worked lovely until BitCoin collapsed in value. Then the whole thing flew apart. When it was going great, I was genuinely envious and thought it would be great to do something like that. Then, when it unraveled, I saw how the whole thing was kind of an impractical pipe dream and an illusion. The whole thing is very human to me, and I am part of it while being able to step outside myself and criticique it all, including myself.

And, while I do not see civilization as monolithic or a zero-sum game, I think it is fair to say that Western civilization has transformed the globe in fundamental ways that just might be more profound than transformations in the other direction. In the end, I don’t really care. If our civilization is a gift from China that I am currently ignorant of, I will happily confess my error when it is shown to me. At the same time, Marx and Engels are the curse that China suffers with up to the present day, and they were definitely not Chinese.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Never heard it worded this way. I can visualise that as making sense. I wouldn't be quick to assume that the east isn't a successful civilisation in its own right. I also wouldn't assume that is is fair (not sure is it should be fare, bit tired), to accuse people who are ignorant or inexperienced as taking it for granted. We only know what we know or what we have been led to believe. I also think it isn't good to accuse children of ignoring, neglecting and denigrating institutions. I doubt they have that much influence that it would matter. But they don't know. Not all children fight against the institution. But all adults were once children and they grow up and become part of the system.

Paine speaks in pretty stark and bold terms. I can see why that is grating. There is a level at which one chooses to identify words like ignorant as insults or facts. One can be called ignorant of something without any intent to blame the person for being ignorant. I am ignorant of many things, but it does sting to have someone call me out for being ignorant of something. In certain kinds of conversations, I want to be able to set social concerns aside for a moment and talk about a set of facts and models that we can use to organize them. As soon as we get into conversations about whether east or west is better, or whether saying someone is ignorant is an insult, the topic inevitably changes to whether we are being decent people by even having a conversation. I think it is possible to talk about east and west, and knowledge versus ignorance, without blaming people.

I look at our level of individualism in the United States as a luxury that ultimately undermines civilization. I don’t blame myself for being individualistic. I see why I am. I also see how that is a problem. But, I find the whole thing attractive. There was a wonderful documentary about a libertarian BitCoin utopia in South America that worked lovely until BitCoin collapsed in value. Then the whole thing flew apart. When it was going great, I was genuinely envious and thought it would be great to do something like that. Then, when it unraveled, I saw how the whole thing was kind of an impractical pipe dream and an illusion. The whole thing is very human to me, and I am part of it while being able to step outside myself and criticique it all, including myself.

And, while I do not see civilization as monolithic or a zero-sum game, I think it is fair to say that Western civilization has transformed the globe in fundamental ways that just might be more profound than transformations in the other direction. In the end, I don’t really care. If our civilization is a gift from China that I am currently ignorant of, I will happily confess my error when it is shown to me. At the same time, Marx and Engels are the curse that China suffers with up to the present day, and they were definitely not Chinese.

Thank you for your reply. I may have may have not expressed myself well. I do not believe that the east has gifted the west civilisation. There have been many civilisations. Technology brings with it a different viewpoint of civilisation. I meant that the east and various parts of the world have their own sense of civilisation. In some ways similar to ours in other ways very different. I think there are a lot of positives we can gain from other cultures. Lots of negatives too, but I wouldn't want to be naïve to think that we don't have negatives in how things are done here.

When I read the word ignorance, I didn't read it in a negative light. I took it to mean not being aware of. I think there is often a generalisation of youth being anarchists in some way and this happens every generation. I do not believe that young people hold no value to society. The young ones coming up now are very different to my generation and yes they appear to be cocky little gits at times but doesn't that happen to every generation? My son was calling himself gen z. He was shocked to discover he is actually gen a. There is an incredible change for good in the young people today. I hope they maintain the positive things they are bringing to the world. Obviously I know there are negatives too but that comes with the territory. I just think they don't get enough credit. I know when I was a child, I may have been ignorant but I wasn't setting about to go against everything. I didn't go through adolescence. Didn't have mood swings or a rebellion. Didn't hang out in the streets or do anything to push against the norm. Not all kids are the same.

[Kishkumen]

Thank you for your reply. I may have may have not expressed myself well. I do not believe that the east has gifted the west civilisation. There have been many civilisations. Technology brings with it a different viewpoint of civilisation. I meant that the east and various parts of the world have their own sense of civilisation. In some ways similar to ours in other ways very different. I think there are a lot of positives we can gain from other cultures. Lots of negatives too, but I wouldn't want to be naïve to think that we don't have negatives in how things are done here.

Today civilization is sometimes used almost interchangeably with culture. I agree with you that all cultures and civilizations have positives and negatives. I don't think Paine is naïve about all of this either. She specializes in Asian history, as a matter of fact.

When I read the word ignorance, I didn't read it in a negative light. I took it to mean not being aware of. I think there is often a generalisation of youth being anarchists in some way and this happens every generation. I do not believe that young people hold no value to society. The young ones coming up now are very different to my generation and yes they appear to be cocky little gits at times but doesn't that happen to every generation? My son was calling himself gen z. He was shocked to discover he is actually gen a. There is an incredible change for good in the young people today. I hope they maintain the positive things they are bringing to the world. Obviously I know there are negatives too but that comes with the territory. I just think they don't get enough credit. I know when I was a child, I may have been ignorant but I wasn't setting about to go against everything. I didn't go through adolescence. Didn't have mood swings or a rebellion. Didn't hang out in the streets or do anything to push against the norm. Not all kids are the same.

Yep! Every person and every generation is unique. It is good to hold out hope for the future.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Thank you for your reply. I may have may have not expressed myself well. I do not believe that the east has gifted the west civilisation. There have been many civilisations. Technology brings with it a different viewpoint of civilisation. I meant that the east and various parts of the world have their own sense of civilisation. In some ways similar to ours in other ways very different. I think there are a lot of positives we can gain from other cultures. Lots of negatives too, but I wouldn't want to be naïve to think that we don't have negatives in how things are done here.

Today civilization is sometimes used almost interchangeably with culture. I agree with you that all cultures and civilizations have positives and negatives. I don't think Paine is naïve about all of this either. She specializes in Asian history, as a matter of fact.

When I read the word ignorance, I didn't read it in a negative light. I took it to mean not being aware of. I think there is often a generalisation of youth being anarchists in some way and this happens every generation. I do not believe that young people hold no value to society. The young ones coming up now are very different to my generation and yes they appear to be cocky little gits at times but doesn't that happen to every generation? My son was calling himself gen z. He was shocked to discover he is actually gen a. There is an incredible change for good in the young people today. I hope they maintain the positive things they are bringing to the world. Obviously I know there are negatives too but that comes with the territory. I just think they don't get enough credit. I know when I was a child, I may have been ignorant but I wasn't setting about to go against everything. I didn't go through adolescence. Didn't have mood swings or a rebellion. Didn't hang out in the streets or do anything to push against the norm. Not all kids are the same.

Yep! Every person and every generation is unique. It is good to hold out hope for the future.

I need to keep remembering that these people are scholars and intellectuals and not just randoms posting on the internet like me lol. I'm not entirely sure of the difference between civilisation and culture. I assume there may be a difference in that civilization is a group of people and culture is what that group of people is involved in.

[Kishkumen]

I need to keep remembering that these people are scholars and intellectuals and not just randoms posting on the internet like me lol. I'm not entirely sure of the difference between civilisation and culture. I assume there may be a difference in that civilization is a group of people and culture is what that group of people is involved in.

Sometimes Wikipedia is not so bad at offering normative definitions of things:

A civilization (British English: civilisation) is any complex society characterized by the development of the state, social stratification, urbanization, and symbolic systems of communication beyond natural spoken language (namely, a writing system). Civilizations are often characterized by additional features as well, including agriculture, architecture, infrastructure, technological advancement, a currency, taxation, regulation, and specialization of labour.

Historically, a civilization has often been understood as a larger and "more advanced" culture, in implied contrast to smaller, supposedly less advanced cultures. In this broad sense, a civilization contrasts with non-centralized tribal societies, including the cultures of nomadic pastoralists, Neolithic societies, or hunter-gatherers; however, sometimes it also contrasts with the cultures found within civilizations themselves. Civilizations are organized densely-populated settlements divided into hierarchical social classes with a ruling elite and subordinate urban and rural populations, which engage in intensive agriculture, mining, small-scale manufacture and trade. Civilization concentrates power, extending human control over the rest of nature, including over other human beings.

The upshot is, at least according to the all-knowing Wiki, there is no absolute difference between culture and civilization. I am not sure I agree, but with all the editing on Wikipedia maybe this is not such a fringe explanation.