DiscussMormonism.com

Some Schmo wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 2:06 am

I've been thinking about some of our friends here (hi Jersey Girl) and how I've been writing a few posts lately about my general frustration with religion. Every time I write a rant, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about people like Jersey Girl.

Some Schmo wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 3:43 am

Some Schmo wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 2:06 am

I've been thinking about some of our friends here (hi Jersey Girl) and how I've been writing a few posts lately about my general frustration with religion. Every time I write a rant, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about people like Jersey Girl.

Reading this back, I realized what I said here was very ambiguous.

What I meant here is that I will be feeling exceptionally agitated by certain religious people as I'm writing a rant, and there's a little voice in the back of my mind telling me, you know people like Jersey Girl are going to read this and think that they're not like this and I know that I agree with them.

It's just that I squash that voice in the moment because I'm trying to articulate a thought about the people I'm really annoyed at, and so that's why I find myself clarifying my stance over and over again. I know there are good, even great people who are religious or hold some kind of supernatural belief. It never bothers me. I'm happy for them because it seems to work.

It's the charlatans that use people's beliefs to control, manipulate, or otherwise harm others that annoy the “F” out of me.

Moksha wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 5:48 am

So you are saying the true monk should walk on rice paper and leave no footprints, rather than walking away with the donation money stuffed in their pockets?

In 6:1-6, quoting Jesus, Matthew wrote: Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Physics Guy wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 7:10 am

I'm not sure one can really pin down proselytising as the one bad thing about religion.

What about a recovered alcoholic who got sober through a Twelve Step program, and knows a lot of other people who did the same? That person is going to talk up their experience even to strangers because they really think it can help other people.

Or what about early disciples of Ignaz Semmelweis, who were trying to spread the novel idea that many more patients would survive surgery if everything were just kept really clean? If you really think you have good news for people, which will make things much better for them if they hear and believe it, wouldn't it be immoral not to try to spread that word?

It's a problem if the proselytiser is in fact deluded, and their good news is nonsense. But then isn't it the delusion that's the problem, and not the evangelism? If the gospel were true, proclaiming it would be good.

Being ostentatiously virtuous for hypocritical reasons, on the other hand, is certainly also a real thing that really happens among religious people. It's a Known Issue.

Some Schmo wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 2:06 am

I've been thinking about some of our friends here (hi Jersey Girl) and how I've been writing a few posts lately about my general frustration with religion. Every time I write a rant, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about people like Jersey Girl. It occurs to me that I kind of see religious people in two broad but fairly distinct groups (recognizing their could be a slight measure of overlap):

- Those who live their lives in the most honest, moral way they can, recognizing their mistakes and trying to become better people
- Those who do what I'm coming to think of as "performative religion;" it's a character they play to gain something they can't get on their own

The distinguishing feature between these two groups is advertising. Those who are just trying to live a good life and hoping others get the same generally keep their religion to themselves. I remember this from my experience in Mormonism. Those who were low key and reluctant to "spread the gospel" seemed to me to be the most "holy" people. Those who were flamboyantly religious always struck me as suspicious.

Why would you advertise your religion to people who aren't interested? What makes anyone think their particular lifestyle would work for everyone? The main reasons I can think of (other than simple short-sighted ignorance) is to gain the power to control others and to appear pious to gain undeserved respect. I know that a lot of churches encourage members to spread the word, but it's still ultimately up to each member whether to heed that advice or not. The most outspoken religious people are the least trustworthy to me, because I know they're bullshitting, for one thing, and because they constantly say ridiculous things in service of their unwarranted beliefs.

I truly do respect those silent religious types. If you're using your religion to be a better person and silently make the world a better place for you and those around you without trying to convince people your religion is the only path, then you're probably a truly spiritual person. How could anyone have a problem with that?

If you use your religion to try to convince others to enact laws that are motivated by unproven nonsense, or have any notions of Christian Nationalism, you deserve a vicious verbal thrashing and unrelenting mockery.

I just wanted to let people like Jersey Girl know where I'm coming from.

The Wicker Man wrote: ↑

Sun May 26, 2024 4:26 pm

Finrock wrote: ↑

Sun May 26, 2024 2:24 pm

Oh boy!

"7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return."

Nothing good in that?

"For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man;"

The church of Christ does not have a name. It is not made up of buildings. It does not have a headquarters or some human pontiff. If anyone starts a church and calls it the Church of Moses it's not a church. It is an organization called a church. If someone starts a church called, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" it is not a church. It is an organization that is called a church. When Christ said to Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church" he was speaking of himself. Christ is the chief cornerstone of his church. And everyone that has his Spirit in them is a member of his church. It does not matter of what religion someone is or even if they have never heard of Jesus if they have his Spirit within them they are of his church. They will be resurrected. After the resurrection they will either be with the Lord in New Jerusalem or they will be upon the new earth. The second life on the new earth is a second chance to get things right. That is when "an angel" preaches the gospel to every living soul. Once each one of us hears the truth from the angel then sin is unforgiveable. However we too will be given the earnest of the Spirit if we chose it so that we will not sin. There is no human organization that controls any part of that.

Edit: And another truth is that Revelation has been added to. Revelation is from the time of Daniel. "Jesus Christ" and the seven churches and the "I am the alpha and omega and I come quickly" was all added. Sad but true !

Physics Guy wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 7:10 am

I'm not sure one can really pin down proselytising as the one bad thing about religion.

What about a recovered alcoholic who got sober through a Twelve Step program, and knows a lot of other people who did the same? That person is going to talk up their experience even to strangers because they really think it can help other people. Or what about early disciples of Ignaz Semmelweis, who were trying to spread the novel idea that many more patients would survive surgery if everything were just kept really clean? If you really think you have good news for people, which will make things much better for them if they hear and believe it, wouldn't it be immoral not to try to spread that word?

It's a problem if the proselytiser is in fact deluded, and their good news is nonsense. But then isn't it the delusion that's the problem, and not the evangelism? If the gospel were true, proclaiming it would be good.

Being ostentatiously virtuous for hypocritical reasons, on the other hand, is certainly also a real thing that really happens among religious people. It's a Known Issue.

In 6:1-6, quoting Jesus, Matthew wrote: Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.