Does character still matter in politics?

[Kishkumen]

Remember back in the day when Republicans thought character was king? Remember how William F. Buckley was deeply ashamed that he lost it in his debate with Gore Vidal and used a hateful slur?

What happened?

When did it become OK to lie incessantly, verbally abuse everyone, make fun of the handicapped, basically be a grotesque person?

I was raised to believe that our leaders should represent the best of us. Now millions of Americans are eager to vote for a grotesque, despicable man.

What happened?

[ceeboo]

When did Democrats stop beating their wives?

Thread titles like yours, play a huge role in what is damaging America. Devaluing relationships amongst the citizens in America and creating wider division in an already huge divide.

[Morley]

When did Democrats stop beating their wives?

Thread titles like yours, play a huge role in what is damaging America. Devaluing relationships amongst the citizens in America and creating wider division in an already huge divide.

With the given that the thread title could have been better, how do you respond to the substance of Kish's opening post, Ceeboo?

[Kishkumen]

When did Democrats stop beating their wives?

Thread titles like yours, play a huge role in what is damaging America. Devaluing relationships amongst the citizens in America and creating wider division in an already huge divide.

Ceeboo-

Trump is so outside the realm of acceptable that some explanation is needed. I grew up Republican. I remember respectable Republican candidates. Asking what happened comes from my personal experience as someone who voted Republican. Not from a lifelong Democrat who hates Republicans and always has. I am an Independent. I could vote Republican if I felt the Republican Party was done with authoritarianism and believed in the importance of character.

Maybe that context helps.

Not everyone is part of the duopoly.

[yellowstone123]

Remember back in the day when Republicans thought character was king? Remember how William F. Buckley was deeply ashamed that he lost it in his debate with Goee Vidal and used a hateful slur?

What happened?

When did it become OK to lie incessantly, verbally abuse everyone, make fun of the handicapped, basically be a grotesque person?

I was raised to believe that our leaders should represent the best of us. Now millions of Americans are eager to vote for a grotesque, despicable man.

What happened?

Is this the interaction between the two and your conclusion is that Buckley was deeply ashamed after? I'm not so sure about that.

- smith: Mr. Vidal, wasn’t it a provocative act to try to raise the Vietcong flag in the park in the film we just saw? Wouldn’t that invite—raising the Nazi flag during World War II would have had similar consequences.

vidal: You must realize what some of the political issues are here. There are many people in the United States who happen to believe that the United States policy is wrong in Vietnam and the Vietcong are correct in wanting to organize their own country in their own way politically. This happens to be pretty much the opinion of Western Europe and many other parts of the world. If it is a novelty in Chicago, that is too bad, but I assume that the point of the American democracy—

buckley: (interrupting): —and some people were pro-Nazi—

vidal: —is you can express any view you want—

buckley: —and some people were pro-Nazi—

vidal: Shut up a minute!

buckley: No, I won’t. Some people were pro-Nazi and, and the answer is they were well treated by people who ostracized them. And I’m for ostracizing people who egg on other people to shoot American Marines and American soldiers. I know you don’t care—

vidal (loftily): As far as I’m concerned, the only pro- or crypto-Nazi I can think of is yourself. Failing that—

smith: Let’s, let’s not call names—

vidal: Failing that, I can only say that—

buckley (snarling, teeth bared): Now listen, you queer, stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I’ll sock you in your goddam face, and you’ll stay plastered—

(Everybody talks at once. Unintelligible.)

smith: Gentlemen!


If you want to see Buckley lose on Vietnam watch him debate Noam Chomsky on the Firing Line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DvmLMUfGss

[Moksha]

Republicans would never cheer for the contestants in the Squid Games.

[honorentheos]

This thread and the interview in it covers the topic well, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=155911

For those who need a summary: Newt Gingrich.

[Kishkumen]

Is this the interaction between the two and your conclusion is that Buckley was deeply ashamed after? I'm not so sure about that.

I got that from a recent film about the debate. Associates of Buckley claim he was very upset to have lost it like that.

[Gadianton]

Remember back in the day when Republicans thought character was king? Remember how William F. Buckley was deeply ashamed that he lost it in his debate with Gore Vidal and used a hateful slur?

What happened?

When did it become OK to lie incessantly, verbally abuse everyone, make fun of the handicapped, basically be a grotesque person?

I was raised to believe that our leaders should represent the best of us. Now millions of Americans are eager to vote for a grotesque, despicable man.

What happened?

I don't think lying and cheating are anything new for people in general, and certainly not for politicians and wealthy people. But character in the sense of, what mask do we wear? Most definitely a shift there. When did vocally and obviously lying through your teeth become so important, specifically, as a god-fearing, Christ centered Republican who now also loves Vladimir Putin and Russia?

I have to go back to the WWF. The populist base who supports Trump are pretty much the same folks who watched monster truck racing and pro wrestling in the 80s and 90s. (I was addicted to both). Hulk Hogan became the most iconic pro wrestler of all time. He was a classic "good guy". He loved his country, he said his prayers and ate his vitamins and he followed the rules. The heels cheated, had bad manners, and often were foreign wrestlers from Russia who would sing their national anthem to a booing crowd. But the narrative turned over the years. Stone Cold Steve Austin became the next biggest star years later, and his persona was a lewd beer drinker. Many of the heels were made from former good guys, including Hogan, who were now self-righteous. Instead of the crowd going ballistic shouting "USA" as Hacksaw Jim Duggan flew into the ring to smack down the Bolsheviks, there were bad guys like "IRS", who came into the ring with a white shirt and briefcase, reminding everyone to pay their taxes.

I don't think it is a straightforward connection between this shift in wrestling post-Hogan and Trump's campaign so many years later, but you can definitely see how the tastes of the crowd evolve. It's the same people making that shift. And we've been softened up with this same turn in cinema, with more conflicted characters -- The Wire, Battlestar, Breaking Bad, and without question, these shows were so much better than black-and-white cop shows. Lot's of experimenting with good guys not being so good and the bad not so bad.

[Kishkumen]

This thread and the interview in it covers the topic well, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=155911

For those who need a summary: Newt Gingrich.

And yet here our friend ceeboo is telling me my thread is the problem.

To summarize the Millbank interview:

Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove pioneered no holds barred attack-style politics where you lie about your opponent, calling them a traitor, and investigate them on baseless charges endlessly. All you are out to do is rile up the base to get them to support you.

And, they are still at it. Gingrich, Rove, Roger Stone: lying, bullying, attacking free and fair elections. Gutter politics.

Hell, Roger Stone looks like some 12-year-old’s idea of a Bond villain. Dude’s a total creeper.

But my thread is the problem. Not that we have these amoral psychos vandalizing our politics.