American Greatness is American Goodness

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Philo Sofee
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Philo Sofee »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:48 pm
Gunnar wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:27 am

I see your point there, but to tell the truth, when I listen to or sing with Beethoven's 9th, what thrills me the most is the music, its harmonies and rhythms. I was hardly even aware of the words except making sure I learned to pronounce them correctly. I hardly even cared what the words actually meant. There are other pieces of choral music whose words moved me deeply (Handel's Messiah, for example), but in the case of Beethoven's 9th it was the sheer, overwhelming power of the sound of all those voices harmonizing that awed me rather than the actual meaning of the words sung. Maybe this means I am somewhat shallow, but the actual meaning of the words, though certainly not trivial, somehow seemed at least a bit less impressive to me than the awesome beauty of the musical qualities of the piece.
Very well said, and if that makes you shallow I'm more than happy to be shallow right along with you.

Back in the alt.religion.Mormon days a friend posted a wonderful description of the 4th movement that you may have appreciated ... I wonder if I can find it ...

Well, holy cow, there it is -- from 2009 (the Beethoven bit starts after the first few paragraphs): https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religio ... 39l0c8HPEJ
Alt.religion.Mormon?! Wow, blast from the past, that was where I cut my religious apologetic teeth when I first arrived on the internet. That was where I met Julian Reynolds and Darryl Barksdale and Scott Gordon and we all pooled up and began FAIR......just seeing that name makes me feel old... :D
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Bret Ripley
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Bret Ripley »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:22 pm
Alt.religion.Mormon?! Wow, blast from the past, that was where I cut my religious apologetic teeth when I first arrived on the internet. That was where I met Julian Reynolds and Darryl Barksdale and Scott Gordon and we all pooled up and began FAIR......just seeing that name makes me feel old... :D
If you want to avoid feeling *really* old, do not click here: https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religio ... rvbvSFxskJ

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Philo Sofee
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Philo Sofee »

Oh just my!!! What a Nibley lover I was back then eh?! LOL! Too much, too much!!! Oh for nostalgia sake. I can't believe that was in 1914 though! I thought it was so much longer than that! I thought that was such a phenomenal test Smith passed. Well heck hey, I gave it a shot ya know?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:26 pm
I've asked this question here several times before, and I never get an answer: what is it about America that makes Americans think it's so great? It's "the greatest country in the world," apparently.

One of the reason I've asked this is because what is the country, if not for the organizing principles of that country? Sure, you can site climate, or the scenery, or even its economic strength as factors that contribute to a favorable country, but it's always seemed like there was a disconnect between people's love of this country and their utter disdain for their system of government.

So I guess I like this fresh take, MDO. I would say there are many things about American culture that make it a great country. Americans can be very generous. I'm not sure I'd say they were inherently any more generous than the average citizen of any other country, but I would say that generosity is a cultural marker in the US.

Of course, I want to believe in American generosity, but I have to admit that my view of the average American has suffered significantly in the last four years. A lot of Americans are great. A significant number really aren't.
History aside, what makes America great today is you can post what you just posted, and you don’t have to worry about the state ‘security’ gestapo kicking your teeth in, haranguing your family for your views (or worse), and you have recourse through the judicial branch of the government. Hell, you can be whatever you want to be, and not worry about being thrown in jail or catching a bullet in your head. You can organize and not have your cranium crushed in. You can be whatever religion you want, or not. From Reddit:
Non Muslims are not subjected to Sharia law. So if you are a Christian or Hindu on paper, then Sharia law will not affect you whatsoever.

How Sharia law affects me:

1) I can't eat out during Ramadhan (I have to watch my back, there are religious police)

2) Can't consume alcohol. (As with the 1st point, you can avoid the religious police by going to high end bars, they will never catch you there)

3) Islamic eduction (Primary and secondary education was the WORST period of my life. I had to be separated from my friends to go to Islamic classes 3 times a week. I can't even express how much this scarred me. I damned despised it. Sitting in class as an agnostic, I was taught that apostates should be given the death penalty. And this was in a textbook provided by the government. The teacher that taught the class would pester me everyday why I'm not wearing a hijab. She bought me one and told me to wear it beginning the next day, I threw it in the bin in front of her. Everyday when prayer time comes, a disciplinary teacher who monitors the halls will ask me to see her outside the class and she'll ask me why I'm not praying. I always gave her the excuse that I'm on my period, literally every day. One time, she touched my private area to check if I had a pad on. I'm still traumatised by that. I still remember what she wore that day. I don't think I'll ever forget.)

4) Continuation from third point. I have become terrified of Malays and Muslims. I can't help it. If I see a Malay in an event or public space, I don't talk to them, I don't want to be their friend, I avoid them at all cost. Why? Because I'm terrified of them. If I meet 1000 Malays and they for whatever reason suspect me as an apostate, 999 of them are cool with me and 1 person will report me to the religious police, I'll avoid them all. I do have some friends I met from work that are non practising Muslims and they are one of my best friends now. Made me realise how much I'm missing out by avoiding an entire race of people. But I can't change this out of my own safety.

5) I can be prosecuted for premarital sex. Religious police conduct random raids of hotels and anyone can also report me to the religious police if they suspect me doing it. I remember going on a trip with my friends to another state. There were guys and girls, and we all stayed in an Airbnb together. I was terrified of handing over my Id to the house owner. During the entire trip, I kept thinking that the religious police will come and get me.

6) This is the one that hurts me the most. I cry thinking about this every time. I can't marry or have children of my own. Who I marry has to convert to Islam and has to pretend just like I have my whole life. And if I have any children, they will automatically be Muslims, they won't have a choice. And they'll be subjected to everything I gone through from point 1 to point 5.

In conclusion, I just want freedom. That's it. I don't care if a person is a Muslim. That's up to them, I genuinely don't care. I just wish I can believe in anything I want. It doesn't harm anybody.

This is why I wish reincarnation was real, if I had a choice, I'd like to be reborn as a human again. Of course, in a normal country, not one where there's no freedom of religion. At the same time, I also look on the bright side, at least I wasn't born in Iran or North Korea right? Ahhahaha
The above is just what’s great about not being a fascist country.

What’s great about not being a truly Socialist country is you’re not forced to work some crappy job at the point of a gun, because sugar cane production is lagging. You don’t have to sell your soul to corrupt politburo members just to get a on a list for some crappy housing. You can set the market for your labor. You have freedom of movement. You can have a different opinion from the state, or you don’t have to toe the party line. Re-education camps aren’t a thing, neither is a gulag. We have food abundance and excellent supply lines. There’s no stasi.

At the end of the day, what makes America great is what your brain accepts as greatness. If we opened our borders there’d be a billion people here as soon as they could get here. That’s a pretty good endorsement of our values, as wonky and fraught as they are.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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canpakes
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by canpakes »

Good post, Doc.
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Bret Ripley
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:53 pm
Oh just my!!! What a Nibley lover I was back then eh?! LOL! Too much, too much!!! Oh for nostalgia sake. I can't believe that was in 1914 though! I thought it was so much longer than that! I thought that was such a phenomenal test Smith passed. Well heck hey, I gave it a shot ya know?
You did, man, you did! And just scanning the threads some of those names from the past simply jump off the screen ... Randy Jordan, Kevin 'Red' Davis, Diana, Guy Briggs, Clovis Lark, Duwayne Anderson, Retroprophet, rasqual ... too many to list, really.

I gotta tell ya, it kinda makes me go all misty.
Philo Sofee
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Philo Sofee »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:32 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:53 pm
Oh just my!!! What a Nibley lover I was back then eh?! LOL! Too much, too much!!! Oh for nostalgia sake. I can't believe that was in 1914 though! I thought it was so much longer than that! I thought that was such a phenomenal test Smith passed. Well heck hey, I gave it a shot ya know?
You did, man, you did! And just scanning the threads some of those names from the past simply jump off the screen ... Randy Jordan, Kevin 'Red' Davis, Diana, Guy Briggs, Clovis Lark, Duwayne Anderson, Retroprophet, rasqual ... too many to list, really.

I gotta tell ya, it kinda makes me go all misty.
I actually called and talked to Randy Jordan on the phone. He is the one who told me the critics were all laughing behind the scenes because all they were doing was quoting Joseph Smith back to me! I was astonished. He said "Yeah we beat you every time with your own prophet. We had no work to do at all, we just kept throwing your own prophet back at you!" lol
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Gunnar »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:48 pm
Very well said, and if that makes you shallow I'm more than happy to be shallow right along with you.

Back in the alt.religion.Mormon days a friend posted a wonderful description of the 4th movement that you may have appreciated ... I wonder if I can find it ...

Well, holy cow, there it is -- from 2009 (the Beethoven bit starts after the first few paragraphs): https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religio ... 39l0c8HPEJ
[/quote]
Thanks for that bit of insight! The next time I listen to Beethoven's 9th, I will have better understanding even better appreciation of the work than I now have.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Some Schmo
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by Some Schmo »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:04 am
At the end of the day, what makes America great is what your brain accepts as greatness. If we opened our borders there’d be a billion people here as soon as they could get here. That’s a pretty good endorsement of our values, as wonky and fraught as they are.
I can appreciate what you said about America, but most of what you said isn't unique to the US. It could also be said of Canada, France, Germany and the UK, for instance.

I can't help but think that most people who say "America's the greatest!" have never really been anywhere else. Otherwise, they're mostly ex-military who, ya know, kind of have patriotism built-in, given they gravitated toward the military.

Patriotism is a nice sentiment, for certain, but it's feels over-the-top and unrealistic in America.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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ajax18
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Re: American Greatness is American Goodness

Post by ajax18 »

History aside, what makes America great today is you can post what you just posted,
Just don't ever admit you believe white privilege doesn't exist or commit blasphemy in uttering the forbidden word even if just in an effort to understand a question you're being asked about it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -word.html
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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