We have the letters of Paul, who personally knew Peter and James, so our earliest sources about Jesus are only two degrees of separation away from his own life. That's a lot closer than we can get for many other significant figures from the ancient world.
I think the problem here is that Christianity makes Jesus almost literally the center of the universe. When people raised in a Christian background look into the evidence, they find that there's far less evidence than you'd expect for such a hugely important figure. But Jesus was not an important figure in and of himself, and the thing that made him more significant than other failed messiah claimants is the tenacious devotion of his followers and how widely that devotion was able to spread long after his death.
If Christianity had died out within a generation after Paul's death, so that there were no gospels detailing Jesus's life, but Paul's letters had somehow survived into the present, historians would treat Jesus as a real but minor historical figure because Paul's letters treat him as a real historical figure. There would be no movement dedicated to disproving his existence because Christianity wouldn't have created such absurdly high expectations.
Channeling Carrier, if I could, half of Paul's letters are considered forgeries, and the ones that aren't do not in any sense speak or verify the life of Jesus. Indeed, Paul's teachings and claims for how he's gotten his knowledge, seem ignorant of Jesus' life. And, on top of that, we have no words from Peter or James. So, we're further from verifying Jesus' existence then it seems.
Although in the case of Paul we have recorded testimony of his vision on the road to Damascus. It had a dramatic effect on him.
Yet it seems clear Paul had some kind of experience that really did cause him to rethink everything, even if he did not reject all aspects of Judaism in favor of Christianity. By appearing to Paul in his resurrection glory, Jesus radically changed Paul’s thinking in a way which cannot really be described as “conversion” in the contemporary sense. It was a prophetic call like Isaiah or Ezekiel which resulted in a transformation of Paul’s thinking about who Jesus is and what he claimed to be.
Although in the case of Paul we have recorded testimony of his vision on the road to Damascus. It had a dramatic effect on him.
Regards,
MG
Millions of peoples have had millions of dreams. Dreams don't supply good evidence for claims, particularly extraordinary claims.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Although in the case of Paul we have recorded testimony of his vision on the road to Damascus. It had a dramatic effect on him.
Regards,
MG
Millions of peoples have had millions of dreams. Dreams don't supply good evidence for claims, particularly extraordinary claims.
Not only did Paul have an experience with the Christ on the road to Damascus, which wasn’t a dream, by the way, but also at least a couple of other times that we have record of. Do you reject multiple experiences that he had?
Not only did Paul have an experience with the Christ on the road to Damascus, which wasn’t a dream, by the way, but also at least a couple of other times that we have record of. Do you reject multiple experiences that he had?
Regards,
MG
What makes you so certain it wasn't a dream? How would you know that? Were others able to see Jesus as Paul did while Paul was in his daze? It may be like Joseph having a dream of Moroni floating above him, talking to him, while his siblings lay asleep un-aware. Sounds like dream. On that, as I said, there's been millions of occasions of such experiences. Whose to say they too don't reasonably demonstrate the existence of whatever someone might conjure up in their minds?
How do we take seriously individual claims of magic? Many have had visions and an explanation of them can easily and far more reasonably be found in our imaginations.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
When, and under what conditions, would you accept an extraordinary claim? Do the experiences of Paul not meet that standard?
Regards,
MG
I can't imagine how they could meet the standard. They are simply claims of dreams.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Paul speaks specifically of meeting with James the brother of Jesus. It's crazy talk to say Paul made up the historical Jesus. The Jesus mythology that replaced the law with grace is another story. But it's nearly impossible to accept Paul was a real person and Jesus was not.
I seem to recall the mythiscist argument is Paul meant brother to mean something else but it descends into irrational apologetics pretty quickly. We discussed this extensively in a thread on the old board. It would take some digging to find but it covered the arguments made pretty well as I recall.
Channeling Carrier, if I could, half of Paul's letters are considered forgeries, and the ones that aren't do not in any sense speak or verify the life of Jesus. Indeed, Paul's teachings and claims for how he's gotten his knowledge, seem ignorant of Jesus' life. And, on top of that, we have no words from Peter or James. So, we're further from verifying Jesus' existence then it seems.
Stem,
The actual letters of Paul are lengthy thoughts about the meaning of the life and death of Jesus which would be odd if there was no Jesus. Paul reports in a most reliable way comparing his understanding with those in Jerusalem who were with Jesus. That is pretty strong evidence of Jesus. The fact that some early Christians, followers of Paul wrote some letters under his name only shows that Paul and his understanding was not alone. Even calling those letters forgeries does absolutely nothing to undermine the actual letters of Paul.
Paul reports Jesus as a Jew (real person) who was crucified, died, and reportedly raised from the dead. I do not understand why the fact that in writing a letter to a community of believers with reflections on the meaning of Jesus life and death Paul does not include a life of Jesus should be thought either surprising or evidence that Jesus was pretend.
I think the strongest observations skeptical of the Christian stories are these. Miracle stories often grew up about some people in those days. People seemed to enjoy such so the Jesus stories could have grown a bit over time. Then there is the observation that people do not come back from the dead so something else must have happen. Both of these observations are very old and have not lost their original strength.
So to get this straight, Paul’s work and testimony was the result of multiple delusionary experiences that he had?
Regards,
MG
Why is a dream a delusion? Do all other religious gurus and characters suffer from delusion because they reveal a God and religion different from what you expect? Why is Paul any different?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos