True Doctrine

[_gramps]

Thanks alot for your post. Yours set an example that others, and hopefully more, will follow.

I understand what you mean about a sence of freedom when you set aside the church. That is one of the halmarks of the christian faith, is that God demands something of his people. between watching what you do, being aware that people watch what you do, denying yourself the ability to watch a popular movie because its rated R, spending your weekend at church. These things can build up and make you frustrated and angry if you are doing them without the company of the Holy Ghost. Even with the company of the Holy Ghost they can sometimes get frustrating. I read the biography of Bruce R McConkie and he talked about the need of finding a balance betwen church and family time. I spoke a little about this with my bishop as well, he stated that it wasn't really that great a burden to him, being a Bishop I mean, because he put that Job on a schedule. he is Bishop at church functions, on Sundays, and on Thursdays when he does his interviews. the rest of the time he spends with his family and doing normal things. He found his balance.

Why do people go to church? Because they believe in God. They believe that there is a purpose to life. What do you believe is the purpose in life gramps? Why are we here? What is your view?

As for people telling you that you will be eternally unhappy, they lack understanding. The Father will place you where you are comfortable. If you have lived your life after the manner of the world, then that is where you wil stay, among others who feel the same way. But what peopel are clumsily trying to express to you is that there is more. it is only in the highest kingdom that marriage and progeny continue. It is by accepting responsibilities in spiritual matters, eternal matters, that God can entrust you with all that he has. If that does not interest you, than so be it. I simply offer you that there is more to learn and understand.

All the best

Gaz

Hi Gaz. Trust me. I am not one who tries to set an example for others to follow. I would not sugget to anyone that they follow my path. But, I think you meant that as some kind of compliment, so I thank you.


Gaz said:

I understand what you mean about a sence [sic] of freedom when you set aside the church.

Were you reading some other post than mine when you thought to make this point? Where did I talk about a sense of freedom?

I did say this:

I actually enjoy life and am quite at peace not knowing the truth of it all. In fact, that's what is cool about not believing the Mormon nonsense. The world is much more interesting and mysterious to me now than when I was trying to figure out Kolobian astronomy and how handshakes had to be just so, in order to get into heaven.

The world is much more interesting and mysterious, not knowing it all. But I did not leave the church because it was too demanding. On the contrary, Gaz, I think living the Mormon life is a piece of cake compared to living outside of it. I find it much more demanding and challenging outside the church. What's so tough, assuming you believe it all, to turning on the autopilot function and cruising through life without having to think about why you're doing what you're doing?

If you are telling me that, were the Holy Ghost not your constant companion, you would be frustrated and even angry about following a Mormon-type christian life, I would suggest that is a clue to you that something isn't quite right about the beliefs you hold so dear.

When I left the church, I found myself more sensitive to truth, more sensitive to morals and ethics and beauty, more sensitive to how I dealt with my friends and family. I was a better student, a better employee, a better husband, etc.

Don't go trying to tell me that you live somehow a better, more pure life because you have the Holy Ghost with you. I don't buy it. You seem to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the typical Mormon-Christian mantra, that the rest of us, the non-believers, are all heathens; that the "natural man" is an enemy to God. I know you have to believe that, for whatever reason, which only you will ever know.

In fact, when I was once like you, I believed like you do now. But, it is not true. How about that? What you think you believe is true is not true. In fact, I do believe that people walking around forcing or manufacturing "the Holy Ghost" into their lives through their daily scripture study, attending their Fast and Testimony meetings, doing their home teaching, having their family prayers around the dinner table, avoiding R-rated movies, etc. ad nauseum are living life within a vicious circle, from which it is difficult to extricate themselves. I think it would be fair to analogize to a drug addict, who keeps needing to up the dosage to get the same high. You aren't doing anything different, really. You are just psychologically, rather than physically, addicted. Your body might not waste away through your addiction, but I believe you are arresting the development of your soul.

What I am saying here is true in my experience. I was quite surprised to learn this because I once thought just like you.

I had to take a leap of faith when I left the church because I had come to realize that the idea a human could have access to the absolute truth wasn't accurate. But, something assured me that it would be ok. I had to do all this alone. I didn't have a board to come to for support and hear from others that I would be ok when I took that leap.

And guess what: I jumped out of a black-and-white world into the most beautiful rainbow-colored world, full of the most amazing people, cultures and ideas. But I could never have found that had I not taken that leap of faith, based on reason, experience and common sense. Trust me, you don't even know just how black-and-white and lifeless that world you are in really is. You are so immersed in your daily manufacturing of the Mormon spirit life that you can't see the beauty of the world in which you live.

Why would you even need to go to your Bishop to figure out how to balance your life? Isn't it simple? If I am sitting at this computer 24/7, at some point I only have to look at my girlfriend and watch her behavior to realize that I have lost balance and perspective. If I am around her 24/7, I only have to be attentive to her behavior to know that I should give her some breathing room. If I am working so much that my friends have lost interest in me, isn't that quite clear that I should slow down and spend some time with my friends and put in the required effort to keeping those friendships. You know a lot better about your life, if you watch the people around you and listen inside of you, and what to do to stay healthy and happy.

But, and I may be wrong, I would guess, because you are a good Mormon, that you are constantly having to try to justify everything you are doing in your life, because you have been told you have to do all this stuff, but reality keeps smacking you aside the head and you can't figure out how to balance it all. So you run to your priesthood leader and try to figure it out, or fast for 48, instead of 24 hours, or read for 30 minutes each day from the Book of Mormon, instead of only fifteen, and on and on. This is the addiction I am talking about. I've seen it in a lot of Mormons.

My purpose in life is a simple one, Gaz. Get as much experience out of life that I can, without crossing over my personal ethical boundaries and not crossing over intrusively into someone else's space while I do it. It works for me.

Why are we here? That's the million dollar question. But, I don't find any peace or happiness in convincing myself through the manufacturing of the spirit through the daily Mormon routine that I know the answer to that question. I am at peace not knowing. I don't suffer from that angst from which you seem to suffer.

All in due time, Gaz. All in due time. But, one thing for sure. On my death bed I don't want to have any regrets. I'm trying to live my life in such a way that that won't be the case. That is enough.










[/quote]

[Themis]

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[_Daniell]

[quote="harmony"]

Hi Daniel. Welcome. :-) Are you the Community of Christ Daniel from FAIR?[/quote]


LOL, No, I'm just Daniel, follower of Christ and the Gospel which Joseph taught.

Thank you for the welcome.

[_harmony]

This is a great simplification, but in the interest of time...

A witness of the Holy Ghost is given by obedience to a law: Prayer

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by Obedience to a Law: Baptism and the laying on of hands.

In the Temple we make Higher Covenants, and thereby apply Higher Laws, which further serve to purify us and allow the Holy Ghost to further inspire and guide us.

The Human body is refered to as a type of temple. For a temple to be acceptable for the presence of God (The Holy Ghost) to dwell within it must be sanctified. Sanctification comes through repentence (A law) and obedience to Gospel principles (Laws)

Obedience to these Laws allows the Holy Ghost to purify us and prepare us to dwell in the house of God. It teaches us the mind and will of the Lord, and aquaints us with the culture of heaven, allowing us to be prepared for the Life God wishs for us to live there.

If we are not in Gods Church, Where Christs teachings are taught in their fulness, how are we then to know what the Laws are, and how they are to be applied?

Gaz

I am a sinner, as is every other person who ever lived. However, my sins notwithstanding (and some of them are pretty bad), I carry what my culture refers to as the Holy Ghost with me always. I live by and with its influence and support. I am comforted by its presence and the peace it brings me. Other people, both members and nonmembers, comment on my aura regularly. Yet according to your basic premise, I should not be able to do this, Gaz. I should be bereft and left alone because I am wilfully disobedient to many of the demands from our leaders in Salt Lake, and I pay little attention to the demands from my stake and ward leaders (which is likely why my local leaders rarely make demands). I choose what I obey, based on the promptings of HG; I am who I am, because I follow the promptings of the HG, not the demands of the GAs. I find the GAs to often be at odds with the HG, and I choose to follow the HG, not the GAs.

According to you, a member such as I, disobedient and unrepentent, should be alone, yet I am not. How do you explain this?

[_Daniell]

Harmony

I am a sinner, as is every other person who ever lived. However, my sins notwithstanding (and some of them are pretty bad), I carry what my culture refers to as the Holy Ghost with me always. I live by and with its influence and support. I am comforted by its presence and the peace it brings me. Other people, both members and nonmembers, comment on my aura regularly. Yet according to your basic premise, I should not be able to do this, Gaz. I should be bereft and left alone because I am wilfully disobedient to many of the demands from our leaders in Salt Lake, and I pay little attention to the demands from my stake and ward leaders (which is likely why my local leaders rarely make demands). I choose what I obey, based on the promptings of HG; I am who I am, because I follow the promptings of the HG, not the demands of the GAs. I find the GAs to often be at odds with the HG, and I choose to follow the HG, not the GAs.

According to you, a member such as I, disobedient and unrepentent, should be alone, yet I am not. How do you explain this?

I assure you Harmony, you are following the correct path. Christ said "FOLOW ME!"

[_Gazelam]

I am curious to know which specific Doctrines of the church you have difficulty with, please share those if you would.

Let me ask you this: Do people who have never been baptised feel the Holy Ghost? The answer is of coarce yes. You can be blessed while not living the whole gospel. When people here that Jesus is the Son of God, the Holy Spirit will bear witness of it. There is a scripture oyu need to keep in mind:

D&C 130:20-21

There is a Law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated - And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

You are blessed for your adherence to the Laws that you obey. But when you stop living the gospel at such and such a point, you damn yourself. I do not mean that oyu are damned to hell, you damn yourself like a river is damned. Your progression stops. You keep yourself from living that part of the culture of heaven. You progress into[i] the culture of heaven through obedience to its precepts.

If you are questioning a gospel principle, ask yourself "Why would God give that law to us, what is the end goal there"

Gaz

[_Gazelam]

That was a great post, much appreciated.

I find the problems you state that you had with the church to be similar to others I have heard. You have a hard time being happy in applying Christs teachings in your life. I went a short spell feeling similar, but the problem ended up being with me, not the gospel.

2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

The gospel is not there to make you miserable. Is God miserable? Does he live under a different set of Laws than the ones he has given us? Ask yourself, what is the culture of heaven? How is that culture maintained and applied? Which of the Church teachings do oyu feel steals away from this?

The difficult tasks and responsibilities that are given to us stretch us and cause growth in us. I know my son REALLY did not want to learn how to tie his shoes, it was to hard. think when hes older he'll be mad at me because I made him do it? Are you mad at your Mom and Dad because they made you do your homework?

You seem to take pleasure in all the different cultures of the world, and seem to think that in obeying the Gospel it makes you only see these different cultures in a prejudiced light. While its true that the church encourages to only follow one culture, that of heaven, it does not mean that we cannot take pleasure in other cultures. There is truth in all culturs, and something to appreciate in all of them. What is that old Joseph Smith quote? "Let truth come from how, where and what it may..."

I did something in my personal life that made me appreciate the church more. I thought to myself, if we are supposed to emulate the Savior, and follow the examples of the prophets, how did they spend their free time? I got rid of music in my collection that I thought would be offensive to the spirit, I did the same with my DVD's. I made studying the gospel my hobby, and found pleasure in seeing more and more connections between the teachings and various commandments.

Concentate on what you believe the culture of heaven would be. How does the Father spend his time? Is he angst ridden? Does he mope around all sad because Lucifer and the others rebelled? Does he have a hard time watching all his actions and sayings because he feels the eternal laws are restraining?

The laws of heaven are there to bring us long term happiness. Raiseing children isn't always fun, but watching them grow through the years is.

Gaz

[_Polygamy Porter]

That was a great post, much appreciated.

I find the problems you state that you had with the church to be similar to others I have heard. You have a hard time being happy in applying Christs teachings in your life. I went a short spell feeling similar, but the problem ended up being with me, not the gospel.

2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Gaz,
Why the quote from a book you consider scripture, but gramps considers BS?

Go ahead and shoot Mormon scriptures to other TBMs, but not to people who look at all Mormon scripture as being nothing more than BS.

[_Gazelam]

The word prophet as found in the Old Testament comes from the Hebrew nabi. The original meaning of the root is not known. Scholars are in general agreement, however, that the lost Hebrew root is related to cognate Akkadian and Arabic words meaning "called" or "to call", conveying the idea that a prophet is one called of God, or meaning "to announce," or "to proclaim, emphasizing that a prophet is one who proclaims the will of God. Usage has established the meaning. In the context of the Old testament, a prophet (nabi) was one who had been called of God to be his spokesman.

Whether it be to declare his mind, teach his doctrines, record his word, typify his presence in the performance of ritual, or lead his people, God has chosen the faltering voice of man, languages born in the day of Babel, and the pen of the untutored to represent him. Indeed, he has the propensity for choosing the weak and the simple as instruments by whom to manifest his knowledge and power.

(Prophets and Prophecy, Joseph Fielding McConkie, Bookcraft 1988)

The same purpose found in a prophet can also be found in the need of church atendence.

D&C 84:19-23

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

[_ajax18]

Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

Exactly what power is being manifest? I guess I don't see what that is.

Yes I'm familiar with the idea that God chose prophets. My question is what can the prophet do for me that I can't already do for myself? What is he telling me that I don't, or shouldn't alreaydy know?