healing/recovery through venting?

[_wenglund]

Hi John,

Thanks, for getting the discussion back on topic and for addressing what I actually said.

Some of Ray A.'s astute comments on another thread motivated me to devote a thread specifically to the question whether or not venting, particularly unstructured "venting" like what occurs at RFM, is an effective means of recovery/healing.

Could someone who thinks you can heal/recover from venting, please explain the alleged therapeutic dynamic?

I am interested to see if this same alleged therapeutic dynamic works with anti-Semites when they "vent" against Jews.

Thanks, -Wade

Wade,

I think we need to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Venting alone has no therapeutic value, but almost every form of counseling I'm aware of encourages expression of one's feelings, often in an unstructured way.

Actually, there is at least the structure of privacy and the facilitating of a therapist.

And the attempt to equate exmormons with anti-Semites is rather sad, Wade.

On this thread I haven't equated anti-Semites to ex-Mormons. I haven't even equated some ex-Mormons at RFM with anti-Semites (though eventually on the bigotry thread I will be looking into the issue). I raised the anti-Semite issue as a way of testing the generalities of what people say here about the therapeutic benefits of venting. (By the way, the term venting in relation to places like RFM is a word I picked up from those who defend the actions at RFM)

Anyway, here's something to chew on:

Venting of feelings was a commonly perceived therapeutic benefit of the
computer groups and refers to expression of emotions. Participants saw their groups as:
A space to vent and discuss difficult issues.
Provides an outlet for my feelings in what I perceive to be a safe & caring environment.
As stated by a person participating in a group dealing with suicide and depression:
The group forms a community in which it is possible to be honest, and to be understood.
Suicide and depression are experiences which frighten most folks. a.s.holiday
(alt.suicide.holiday) people recognize the desires, and do not fear them.
Several participants noted that there was a sense of comfort in expressing emotion this way. As
stated by one participant:
Sometimes it’s much easier talking to a machine than a person.
Venting was particularly important with regard to conflict. Participants noted that being able to
express anger and be honest about negative feelings towards others was helpful. In some
computer groups conflict was tolerated once a person was accepted as part of the group. A 36
year old woman stated:
Part of ANY group is a sense of insider-outsider. Some call it ‘cliques’. Those ‘inside’ can
practically say & do anything.
Another participant wrote:
...A way to learn self-preservation skills, and the chance to practice either mediation or
avoidance of conflict.
While distinct issues, conflict and the perception of anonymity were closely related. A man in a
group relating to alcoholism stated:
Anonymity allowed me to be much more confrontational than I would have face to face.

ONLINE SUPPORT GROUPS: EXTENDING COMMUNITIES OF CONCERN
Susan L. Eaglesham, Dissertation, Virginia Polytechnic and State University, 1996

So, apparently, there is some value in "venting" in online recovery groups. And to think, I thought it was just a place to hang out and spew vitriolic hate. ;-)

You will note that the perceived therapeutic value in venting was measured by selectively polling the opinions of those doing the venting. Even the online anti-Semite will tell you that they feel protected by their anonymity and believe they are more free to express thair experiences and feelings, and they feel better about themselves through the process. Should we take from this that venting is a good thing?

Dr. Aaron Beck, in his book on the psychology of anger and hate, mentions that a key component in anger and hate, particularly as a cycle, is dehuminization. I would think that the anonymity of online venting would make dehuminization much easier if not inevidable.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I raised what I believe to be some very important questions earlier that have yet to be answered or responsed to. Let me repost them again for comment:

It may be wise to examine this issue by acknowledging that there are significant emotions that drive the venting. The question is, whether the person experiencing those significant emotions are better off or not by venting and letting off some steam, and if not, are there effective and mature ways of de-escalating and managing the emotions. Beastie makes a good point about not repressing or ignoring significant emotions. That is not healthy either. So, what works and what doesn't?

Also, it may be wise to look beyond the person experiencing the significant emotion and also consider how their significant emotions, and the mode they may chose for releasesing or managing their emotions, may affect those around them. I think this is important, not just because people may not always respond positively if they happen to be in the path of someone elses volcanic emotional eruption, but also because quite often, the significant emotions are a product of relationships with others. For the means of addressing the significant emotion to work, it then should be one that does not compromise, but enhances and heals relationships. Shades and Keene and others touched on this with the wife and husband analogy.

What do you think?

Let me also add these questions:

If there is therapeutic value in venting, then why doesn't it stop at the first venting? Why is there repeat venting, some times for day's on end or for weeks and months and years at places like RFM?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Southern Redneck]

Porter. Wade is desperate to tag us with the label of 'bigot' to justify his own bias/bigotry. The more open you are with him, the more he will try to get you to admit to hatred or bigotry. Mister Scratch can deal with him and his word games. I wash my hands of this series of posts on bigotry.

[_wenglund]

Porter. Wade is desperate to tag us with the label of 'bigot' to justify his own bias/bigotry. The more open you are with him, the more he will try to get you to admit to hatred or bigotry. Mister Scratch can deal with him and his word games. I wash my hands of this series of posts on bigotry.

As mentioned on another thread, those not afflicted with the dysfunction and toxicity of bigotry need not fear my GENERIC approach--just as I don't fear your accusations of bigotry leveled against me. In fact, I welcome you making your case for me being a bigot because, on the off chance that I am bigotted and don't know it, it would be to my advantage to find that out and to go about correcting that alleged dysfunction and toxicity in me, for my benefit as well as to the benefit of those around me.

In other words, there is no rational reason to fear either way. So your fear for yourself and Porter, while perhaps expected, is irrational.

However, if you do wish to make your case about me, I would respecfully ask that you make it on the appropriate thread, and not derail this discussion on venting.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Hi John,

Actually, there is at least the structure of privacy and the facilitating of a therapist.

True enough.

On this thread I haven't equated anti-Semites to ex-Mormons. I haven't even equated some ex-Mormons at RFM with anti-Semites (though eventually on the bigotry thread I will be looking into the issue). I raised the anti-Semite issue as a way of testing the generalities of what people say here about the therapeutic benefits of venting. (By the way, the term venting in relation to places like RFM is a word I picked up from those who defend the actions at RFM)

Yes, by your comparison of exmormon venting to anti-semitic "venting," you equated the two. Either way, this goes back to both the cause and the result of the feelings people have on RfM. I've only met a few people on RfM whom I would classify as bigots in the sense that their anger is focused on a group of people whom they make stereotyped generalizations about. Those people would indeed be akin to anti-semitic bigots. Most exmormons, however, are hurting because of their past history and are trying to get over that hurt; it has nothing to do with feeling animosity toward a group and making assumptions about them. Wade, we don't hate Mormons. We don't discriminate against Mormons.

You will note that the perceived therapeutic value in venting was measured by selectively polling the opinions of those doing the venting. Even the online anti-Semite will tell you that they feel protected by their anonymity and believe they are more free to express thair experiences and feelings, and they feel better about themselves through the process. Should we take from this that venting is a good thing?

Dr. Aaron Beck, in his book on the psychology of anger and hate, mentions that a key component in anger and hate, particularly as a cycle, is dehuminization. I would think that the anonymity of online venting would make dehuminization much easier if not inevidable.

Again, you are equating leaving the church with antisemitism. Dehumanization has to do with bigoted behavior against a group of people. That many of us are angry at an institution does not mean we have dehumanized the members of that institution. I disagree with certain political parties and even get angry at their actions sometimes; that does not mean I am bigoted against the members of the party or would discriminate against them.

I have no idea if your intent is to set us up as bigots akin to antisemites. But it's an inapt analogy and highly offensive.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Porter. Wade is desperate to tag us with the label of 'bigot' to justify his own bias/bigotry. The more open you are with him, the more he will try to get you to admit to hatred or bigotry. Mister Scratch can deal with him and his word games. I wash my hands of this series of posts on bigotry.

Bigot is the name of the one trick pony that Wade rides into these discussion boards.

He will hop on that pony and ride outta Shady Acres once he realizes we all don't give a rats about is opinions.

[_wenglund]

Hi John,

Actually, there is at least the structure of privacy and the facilitating of a therapist.

True enough.

On this thread I haven't equated anti-Semites to ex-Mormons. I haven't even equated some ex-Mormons at RFM with anti-Semites (though eventually on the bigotry thread I will be looking into the issue). I raised the anti-Semite issue as a way of testing the generalities of what people say here about the therapeutic benefits of venting. (By the way, the term venting in relation to places like RFM is a word I picked up from those who defend the actions at RFM)

Yes, by your comparison of exmormon venting to anti-semitic "venting," you equated the two. Either way, this goes back to both the cause and the result of the feelings people have on RfM. I've only met a few people on RfM whom I would classify as bigots in the sense that their anger is focused on a group of people whom they make stereotyped generalizations about. Those people would indeed be akin to anti-semitic bigots. Most exmormons, however, are hurting because of their past history and are trying to get over that hurt; it has nothing to do with feeling animosity toward a group and making assumptions about them. Wade, we don't hate Mormons. We don't discriminate against Mormons.

Actually, no, I have yet to draw the comparison between ex-Mormon venting and anti-semetic venting (that, again, is a comparison that may be explored later in the thread or even on the bigotry thread). At this point, though, I have been speaking about the alleged therapeutic value of "venting" in general, and I raised the "anti-Semite' venting question as a way to vet the kind of distintictions you make (in principle) above. In other words, I am was trying to get you all to recognize that not all forms of venting is therapeutic, and some forms of venting may even be corrosive to all parties concerned.

Once we come to that agreement, it then becomes a matter of vetting the characteristic or dynamics that distinguish alleged therapeutic venting from corrosive venting.

You will note that the perceived therapeutic value in venting was measured by selectively polling the opinions of those doing the venting. Even the online anti-Semite will tell you that they feel protected by their anonymity and believe they are more free to express thair experiences and feelings, and they feel better about themselves through the process. Should we take from this that venting is a good thing?

Dr. Aaron Beck, in his book on the psychology of anger and hate, mentions that a key component in anger and hate, particularly as a cycle, is dehuminization. I would think that the anonymity of online venting would make dehuminization much easier if not inevidable.

Again, you are equating leaving the church with antisemitism. Dehumanization has to do with bigoted behavior against a group of people. That many of us are angry at an institution does not mean we have dehumanized the members of that institution. I disagree with certain political parties and even get angry at their actions sometimes; that does not mean I am bigoted against the members of the party or would discriminate against them.

Wrong again. I did not even mention people leaving the church.

This is the third time now that I have had to correct you on this specific point. What will it take for you to stop imposing this false preconception onto what I have said, and get to confine yourself to addressing only what I have said?

And, my comments have to do dehumization in general, and the potential for dehumanization in cases of interactions through a somewhat dehumanizing medium--such as anonymous internet messaging, and the potential for that dehumanization to psychologically lead to the downward cycles of anger and hate, regardless if the end result is bigotry or not.

I have no idea if your intent is to set us up as bigots akin to antisemites. But it's an inapt analogy and highly offensive.

This is the problem. You are conspiracy theorizing about my intents, rather than directly addressing what I actually have said.

Now, even if your theory is correct (and I am not saying that it is or isn't, but that that comparison is open to consideration down the road once the foundation and framework for such a discussion has been properly laid), then by directly responding to what I am now saying, that should position you better (assuming you are correct) to eventually make your point about ex-mormons not being comprerable to anti-Semites once the foundation and framework for that discussion is in place.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Porter. Wade is desperate to tag us with the label of 'bigot' to justify his own bias/bigotry. The more open you are with him, the more he will try to get you to admit to hatred or bigotry. Mister Scratch can deal with him and his word games. I wash my hands of this series of posts on bigotry.

Bigot is the name of the one trick pony that Wade rides into these discussion boards.

He will hop on that pony and ride outta Shady Acres once he realizes we all don't give a rats about is opinions.

People don't fear what they allegedly "give a rats about".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Great, now I'm a conspiracy theorist. Wade, my problem is that I've seen you operate for several years, so yes, I'm wary of someone who employs this tactic.

Let's see, you talk about the destructive nature of venting, and you specifically mention RfM and anti-Semites. Then you turn around and say you never made an explicit comparison. Nice try.

Anyway, as I said, I've already mentioned that most exmormons I know, and most on RfM, do not hold any prejudices against Mormons. If they did, your idea about dehumanizing might make sense. It's not the people we have a problem with, Wade. It's the institution.

[_wenglund]

Great, now I'm a conspiracy theorist. Wade, my problem is that I've seen you operate for several years, so yes, I'm wary of someone who employs this tactic.

Let's see, you talk about the destructive nature of venting, and you specifically mention RfM and anti-Semites. Then you turn around and say you never made an explicit comparison. Nice try.

Anyway, as I said, I've already mentioned that most exmormons I know, and most on RfM, do not hold any prejudices against Mormons. If they did, your idea about dehumanizing might make sense. It's not the people we have a problem with, Wade. It's the institution.

Those are all interesting points that may be useful to explore and may have some bearing down the road (once the foundation is laid for such discussions).

Do you have something pertinent to say about what I have actually said thus far in the thread? Or, is the extent of your contribution to try and nip in the bud an argumentational flower you would just as soon not see bloom IN THE FUTURE (in whatever form the bloom may take)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-