Is Jesus the Christ?

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_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

richardMdBorn wrote:
Richard I disagree (big surprise). If anyone's interested in more "circumstantial evidences and guesswork", here's a link:

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm


Yes, Richard, I've read all of those claims before in detail. Most are problematic, especially the case of Paul, who only saw Jesus in vision, and leaves out crucial elements from the gospels. David Lewis (linked above in the post earlier) covered all of this. If I have some time later I'll post some more about Josephus. Even Crossan accepts that Jesus existed, and G.A Wells has conceded:

In his last works, Wells has somewhat moderated his views, allowing for the possibility that certain elements of the Gospel traditions might be based on a historical figure from the first-century Palestine. However, Wells insists that this line of first-century traditions is separate from the sacrificial Christ myth of Paul's epistles and other early documents, and that these two traditions have different origins. Wells concludes that the reconstruction of this historical figure from the extant literature would be a hopeless task.


Any certainty on this subject comes from faith. Not the study of history.
_harmony
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Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:
richardMdBorn wrote:
Richard I disagree (big surprise). If anyone's interested in more "circumstantial evidences and guesswork", here's a link:

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm


Yes, Richard, I've read all of those claims before in detail. Most are problematic, especially the case of Paul, who only saw Jesus in vision, and leaves out crucial elements from the gospels. David Lewis (linked above in the post earlier) covered all of this. If I have some time later I'll post some more about Josephus. Even Crossan accepts that Jesus existed, and G.A Wells has conceded:


That he existed isn't what I was getting at (but it's still interesting, so please continue). Assuming he existed, as a man. Not as the son of God. Not divine. Not perfect. That makes writers of the gospels liars. And Joseph Smith a liar. If he was not the son of God, he could not have resurrected on the 3rd day, could not have atoned for anything. And the original writers of the gospels have some 'splainin' to do. And so does Joseph Smith.

If Jesus isn't the Christ.
_Ray A

Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Ray A »

harmony wrote:
That he existed isn't what I was getting at (but it's still interesting, so please continue). Assuming he existed, as a man. Not as the son of God. Not divine. Not perfect. That makes writers of the gospels liars. And Joseph Smith a liar. If he was not the son of God, he could not have resurrected on the 3rd day, could not have atoned for anything. And the original writers of the gospels have some 'splainin' to do. And so does Joseph Smith.

If Jesus isn't the Christ.


Unfortunately all of my bookmarks on this subject are on my other computer, which is out of action for a couple of days, so I'm tied, and I don't have time to write out long portions from books. Basically this is a myth that evolved over a long time which became solidified in the fourth century councils, who selected the four gospels and other writings out of numerous apocryphal writings. There is no doubt they contain some historical facts, as Richard mentioned, yet there is still no conclusive link to Jesus. The closest to date was a false start, the James ossuary:

In the November 2002 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, André Lemaire of the Sorbonne University in Paris, published the report that an ossuary bearing the inscription Ya`aqov bar Yosef akhui Yeshua` ("James son of Joseph brother of Jesus") had been identified belonging to a collector, who quickly turned out to be Oded Golan, a forger posing as a collector. If authentic it would have been the first archaeological proof that Jesus existed aside from the manuscript tradition. The ossuary was exhibited at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, Canada, late that year; however, on June 18, 2003, the Israeli Antiquities Authority published a report concluding that the inscription is a modern forgery based on their analysis of the patina. Specifically, it appears that the inscription was added recently and made to look old by addition of a chalk solution. Oded Golan has since been arrested and his forgery equipment and partially completed forgeries have been recovered. On December 29, 2004, Golan was indicted in an Israeli court along with three other men - Robert Deutsch, an inscriptions expert who teaches at Haifa University; collector Shlomo Cohen; and antiquities dealer Faiz al-Amaleh. They are accused of being part of a forgery ring that had been operating for more than 20 years. Golan denies the charges against him.


And even if the James ossuary was authentic, what would that establish? That a man named Jesus lived? What could that tell us about whether he really performed miracles, walked on water, and rose from the dead? Look at the legends surrounding Joseph Smith. They have gone so far that apart from God and Jesus Christ, Joseph is going to okay who gets to heaven. Then there's the 144,000 assembling in Jackson County. If you want to know how myths develop, read Gerald Lund's The Coming of the Lord. I believe said Lund has made considerable profit from later novels, "based on historical facts". If you read Lund's books the historical setting can be verified. You'll find a place once named Nauvoo, and you'll even find a real Joseph Smith. And though we can verify all of this, does that mean that everything Joseph said or taught is true?
_richardMdBorn
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

Hi Ray,

I wil start a new thread on historical issues. Given my schedule, it may not be for a week or two. Here's an article I wrote on who invented GPS. That's certainly a historical question and it includes some subsidiary claims such as Parkinson's assertion that Timation was 2D.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/626/1

Richard
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

richardMdBorn wrote:Hi Ray,

I wil start a new thread on historical issues. Given my schedule, it may not be for a week or two. Here's an article I wrote on who invented GPS. That's certainly a historical question and it includes some subsidiary claims such as Parkinson's assertion that Timation was 2D.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/626/1

Richard


Well Richard, if your father was the inventor of GPS, my hat is off to him. The only thing I didn't like about GPS was that where I previously worked, as a truck driver, the trucks had GPS tracking, and while the invention is terrific, my employers used it in almost Orwellian ways. I think I'm getting your point though, but do correct me if I'm wrong. The attribution for this invention went to others, not your father (I assume it's your father?), and you're using this as an analogy as to how we can get our "historical facts" wrong? Maybe your father felt inspired in what he did too. Anyway, some clarifications from you will be helpful.

I can wait until you start the new thread. Christmas is always so busy.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

I have my own theory about this, which is probably blasphemous by most, particularly many of my fellow TBM's....but I personally think that Jesus was the literal son of Mary and Joseph. I do not think he was conceived by the "Holy Ghost overshadowing her" or God having sex with her, as Brigham Young and other prior LDS prophets seem to believe.

If God is God, why couldn't he confer all of the necessary powers to Jesus, whether or not he was a "literal" decendant? He could still be chosen of God to perform the miracles he performed.

As far as the scriptures go, again, I think a lot of the writings are cultural....people trying to make sense out of things during that time period.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:I have my own theory about this, which is probably blasphemous by most, particularly many of my fellow TBM's....but I personally think that Jesus was the literal son of Mary and Joseph. I do not think he was conceived by the "Holy Ghost overshadowing her" or God having sex with her, as Brigham Young and other prior LDS prophets seem to believe.

If God is God, why couldn't he confer all of the necessary powers to Jesus, whether or not he was a "literal" decendant? He could still be chosen of God to perform the miracles he performed.

As far as the scriptures go, again, I think a lot of the writings are cultural....people trying to make sense out of things during that time period.


You may be on to something, Liz. Why does God need the Godhead? I see no reason why God can't be God, without neither Jesus being God or the Holy Ghost being God. I think it's entirely possible that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah... but that doesn't mean he was God's own son, born of a woman. Is it possible for Jesus to be the Christ, yet not be God?

Loran and others claim that God is a God of order. Yet if that is so, then Jesus is an anomaly. An only. And favored. Which makes him out of order, and that's not possible. God supposedly favors none above another. According to the church, Jesus was God before he came to earth. 'Scuse me, but that's impossible, if God is no respector of persons, if he loves us all the same. One cannot be favored, while the rest are not.
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

I am still confused,,,,,I thought they were one in the same,,,,,why do you people do this to me????

Please stop,,,,I can't handle the condundrum I face everyday thinking of this...maybe I should just stop...
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

liz3564 wrote:I have my own theory about this, which is probably blasphemous by most, particularly many of my fellow TBM's....but I personally think that Jesus was the literal son of Mary and Joseph. I do not think he was conceived by the "Holy Ghost overshadowing her" or God having sex with her, as Brigham Young and other prior LDS prophets seem to believe.


The "virgin birth" traditions go back a long way.

A recurring theme in ancient religion revolves around the manner of the sun god's birth, as well as the chastity of his mother. In a number of instances the sun god is perceived as being born of the inviolable dawn, the virgin moon or earth, or the constellation of Virgo. The virgin status of the mothers of pre-Christian gods and godmen has been asserted for centuries by numerous scholars of mythology and ancient religion. Nevertheless, because of the motif's similarity to a major Christian tenet, apologists attempt to debunk it by simply stating that these Pagan mothers were not virgins, for a variety of reasons, including their marital status, number of children and the manner of impregnation. Regardless, the virgin status of the ancient goddesses or mothers of gods remains, despite their manner of impregnation, because the fathers, like that of Jesus, are gods themselves, as opposed to mortals who physically penetrate the mothers. Also, the mothers are not "real people," but goddesses themselves, who therefore do not possess female genitalia. Thus, despite being a mother, the goddess retains her virginity.


http://www.truthbeknown.com/virgin.htm

From the same link:

None of these writers originated this contention, as, moving back in time, we find reference to Devaki's virgin status in the writings of the esteemed Christian authority Sir William Jones from 1784:

"The Indian incarnate God Chrishna, the Hindoos believe, had a virgin mother of the royal race, who was sought to be destroyed in his infancy about nine hundred years before Christ. It appears that he passed his life in working miracles, and preaching, and was so humble as to wash his friends' feet; at length, dying, but rising from the dead, he ascended into heaven in the presence of a multitude."


Bio of Sir William Jones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(philologist)

Again:

Regarding Krishna and Jones, the anonymous author of Christian Mythology Unveiled ("CMU"), who wrote around 1840, possibly 1842, states:

It has been admitted by most of the learned that the Shastras and Vedas, or scriptures of the Hindoos, were in existence 1400 years before the alleged time of Moses Sir William Jones, of pious and orthodox memory, confesses that, "the name of Chrishna, and the general outline of his story, was long anterior to the birth of our Saviour, and, to the time of Homer, we know very certainly. I am persuaded also (continues he) that a connection existed between the old idolatrous nations of Egypt, India, Greece, and Italy, long before the time of Moses. In the Sanscrit Dictionary, compiled more than two thousand years ago, we have the whole story of the incarnate Deity, Born of a Virgin, and miraculously escaping in his infancy from the reigning tyrant of his country." This tyrant, alarmed at some prophecy, sought the infant's life; and, to make sure work, he ordered all the male children under two years of age to be put to death. Here is the true origin of the horrid story about Herod, of which no Greek or Roman historian says a single word. That the Christian story was taken from the Indian allegory, is traceable in every circumstance the reputed father of Chrisna was a carpentera new star appeared at the child's birthhe was laid in a manger(celestial)he underwent many incarnations to redeem the world from sin and mental darkness, (ignorance and winter) and was, therefore, called Saviourhe was put to death between two thieves he arose from the dead, and returned to his heavenly seat in Vaicontha.


It seems there were many stories circulating about virgin births, and it was an almost common theme in the pre-Christian Old World. Also, the Hebrew word for "virgin" translates to "young woman", one not necessarily a virgin in the sexual sense.
It was the Trinitarian bishops at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD who decided on the doctrine of the Trinity. The council lasted about two months. Even at that time the virgin birth was being disputed, resulting in the Arian "heresy", which held that Christ was a "created being" (ie, mortal).

If you want to watch an entertaining video from You Tube, scroll to the bottom of the page: http://www.truthbeknown.com/index101.htm

I think mythologist Joseph Campbell understood all of this perfectly, and in his book The Hero With A Thousand Faces, he explains this.
Last edited by _Ray A on Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Is Jesus the Christ?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
Ray A wrote:
richardMdBorn wrote:
Richard I disagree (big surprise). If anyone's interested in more "circumstantial evidences and guesswork", here's a link:

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm


Yes, Richard, I've read all of those claims before in detail. Most are problematic, especially the case of Paul, who only saw Jesus in vision, and leaves out crucial elements from the gospels. David Lewis (linked above in the post earlier) covered all of this. If I have some time later I'll post some more about Josephus. Even Crossan accepts that Jesus existed, and G.A Wells has conceded:


That he existed isn't what I was getting at (but it's still interesting, so please continue). Assuming he existed, as a man. Not as the son of God. Not divine. Not perfect. That makes writers of the gospels liars. And Joseph Smith a liar. If he was not the son of God, he could not have resurrected on the 3rd day, could not have atoned for anything. And the original writers of the gospels have some 'splainin' to do. And so does Joseph Smith.

If Jesus isn't the Christ.


Makes not just Joseph Smith a liar but all those in Christianity who have claimed divine intervention. Start with Paul and work back.
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