SWK Bio, Blacks, Priesthood, Pre-existence

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Loran,
Well, I've gone beyond it and, in fact, I was never part of it because my parents never taught me racist attitudes and I was never part of any racial oppression of anyone nor did I ever support such oppression, so I bear no guilt or responsability for it. I guess I have trouble understanding why this rottong corpse won't stay in its grave.


The fact that there are believing members like Gaz who STILL BELIEVE the nonsense that those with dark skin with African ancestry were less valient, or that God was at the helm of the racism is the reason this topic remains alive and well.

When the church truly wants to overcome its less than faith promoting history, it will publically acknowledge and apologize for, (rather than ignore) the racist nonsense so folks like Gaz can let it go.

What disappoints me is that I know at least some of the brethren think the former ban (as opposed to the current one), was not of God, and yet they won't enlighten believers who still follow the racist nonsense of BY & Co.

~dancer~
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Well, I've gone beyond it and, in fact, I was never part of it because my parents never taught me racist attitudes and I was never part of any racial oppression of anyone nor did I ever support such oppression, so I bear no guilt or responsability for it. I guess I have trouble understanding why this rottong corpse won't stay in its grave


LOL! Could this statement be some of the "poop" that Loran speaks of? All you have to do is see his interaction with me, and the racist statements he makes towards me to see just what his thoughts are. He disparages people like the Black Panthers, he thinks Affirmative Action is a joke, and he thinks that any black LDS should just sit back and shut up on this issue, so he can go on with his peter priesthod pontification tirade.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Coggins7 wrote:First, this alters nothing as to the relation of official doctrine to the membership of the church. It was never official doctrine, and it was never put before the membership of the church for their sustaining support.

But yet the 'blacks did something bad in the preexistence to deserve being born black' doctrine found its way into the first official FP statement explaining "the attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes." Your claim is meritless.

You know, at some point we're all going to get beyond our continued pathological obsession with race, and in particular, with the history of race relations regarding black people in this country and grow up intellectually about it. The Priesthood ban is over.

The ban may be over, but the reasons therefor espoused for 150 years have never been dealt with or repudiated. That's the rub.

Relations between blacks and whites, when left to themselves and not set upon incessantly by ideologues and race hustlers, is just sterling.

The "ideologues and race hustlers" were those who claimed for 150 years that in God's view blacks were inferior to whites.

I guess I have trouble understanding why this rottong corpse won't stay in its grave.

Perhaps this is because that "rotting corpse" was never truly buried, and can never be until the Church institution acknowledges and apologizes for its racist past.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Thanks JB, seems the bio might be an interesting read.
Well, I've gone beyond it and, in fact, I was never part of it because my parents never taught me racist attitudes and I was never part of any racial oppression of anyone nor did I ever support such oppression, so I bear no guilt or responsability for it. I guess I have trouble understanding why this rottong corpse won't stay in its grave.
UL added

Loran, as to the first part of your paragraph, are you ready: "I'm with you! Well, to a degree anyway??" Raised in Canada the question of race didn't rank high on our Bigot scale.

However living, (after LDS conversion) with this nefarious doctrin/policy, always disturbed my sense of fairness/justice. As it did most Canadians. As with others, the "news" was delivered by telephone with much cheering in our Stake.

As to the underlined: I can understand that you, "have trouble understanding..." I respectfully suggest: It hasn't been burried long enough or appropriately. Time might attend to that. Time 'could' be shortened by magnanimity on the part of LDSism?? Whenever, if-ever??

However, the crux upon which this whole issue--and others--is based is the "doctrin of pre-existance". As long as that supposition remains the base-of-justification for Mormon peculiarities, there is little hope for rational discussion of current challenges to LDS authoritarianism, such as women, and homosexual equality within patriarchy. Of course there is always "waiting-for-revelation."

From 1830/?? TO 1978=100+ YEARS for Black equality. From 183? to 1890 Manifesto=60-/+ years. In LDS Church existant time, this is double-digit years and seems long. In Universe time it's a nano-second. So there'll be a lot of funerals and advanced education take place before "God's" words will become as audible to Mormon ears as to the secular world. They seems to step in where "angels fear to tread." Can't help but raise questions. Any answers? Warm regards, Roger
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Roger,

I think you're right about this. Time will help, but so would an official repudiation of the doctrines behind it. Until that happens, it will still be raw for many people.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: SWK Bio, Blacks, Priesthood, Pre-existence

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:I really think to argue that it was not considered doctrine is a rather weak position to take.

You are quite right. In the first official FP statement (dated August 17, 1949) regarding "[t]he attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes," it is made clear that the priesthood ban "is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord...." (emphasis added).

This statement goes on to quote BY's "seed of Cain" reasoning for the ban, but adds this further justification: "The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality ...."

For one to argue it was not once "doctrine" is absurd in light of this official FP statement, in my opinion.


It is interesting to note that Pres. McKay was part of the FP that issued this statement and not many years later he took the position that the ban was POLICY.

Anyway, it seems clear that the idea of less valiant spirits being born into the race of Cain and this denied the priesthood was really considered doctrine. This FP statement cinches it further. Can any LDS apologist really argue that it was not and that it was only speculative? I have seen some do so vigorously but it seem rather hollow.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: SWK Bio, Blacks, Priesthood, Pre-existence

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Jason Bourne wrote:It is interesting to note that Pres. McKay was part of the FP that issued this statement and not many years later he took the position that the ban was POLICY.

Yes, and it's too bad he kept that view private, in contrast to the very public 1949 FP statement.

Anyway, it seems clear that the idea of less valiant spirits being born into the race of Cain and this denied the priesthood was really considered doctrine. This FP statement cinches it further.

I completely agree.

Can any LDS apologist really argue that it was not and that it was only speculative? I have seen some do so vigorously but it seem rather hollow.

I find it interesting how they do so by trying to narrowly limit the word "doctrine" to the point where little, if anything, in LDS theology can still be classified as "doctrine."
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »


Loran:

First, this alters nothing as to the relation of official doctrine to the membership of the church. It was never official doctrine, and it was never put before the membership of the church for their sustaining support. The idea of less valiant spirits has a scriptural and doctrinal basis, but as applied to blacks never had an official, binding character. There is no question as to its having been used in a doctrinal sense, but so have other ideas that have never been part of the core, settled doctrines of the gospel.

I won't carry the water of Mormon folk doctrine or statements of GA's on various subjects (like evolution, the nature or Adam, or the Priesthood ban), that were never a part of the fundamental concepts required of a faithful adherent of the restored gospel.

You know, at some point we're all going to get beyond our continued pathological obsession with race, and in particular, with the history of race relations regarding black people in this country and grow up intellectually about it. The Priesthood ban is over. Relations between blacks and whites, when left to themselves and not set upon incessantly by ideologues and race hustlers, is just sterling.

Every time I see a thread like this I think "oh no, NOT another thread on blacks and the Priesthood". You know, there will still be people trying to free Mumia ten thousand years from now. Permanent revolution. It will never end. The grievance and pathological, flagellating collective guilt will still be with us.

Well, I've gone beyond it and, in fact, I was never part of it because my parents never taught me racist attitudes and I was never part of any racial oppression of anyone nor did I ever support such oppression, so I bear no guilt or responsibility for it. I guess I have trouble understanding why this rotting corpse won't stay in its grave.

Loran


Hi Loran,

I am sorry my friend but I am not sure that your prescription for doctrine is or has been applied consistently in the Church. I understand the process of canonization and all. But when numerous GAs take a position, when the FP calls it doctrine in an official statement, and when it is taught routinely to members how can it not be called doctrine. I understand that desire to minimize LDS doctrine down to the canon and the canonization process. But there is much taught that seems to be considered doctrine that has not gone through this process that we want to sweep under the table when later it seems uncomfortable or embarrassing. I see this happening now in relation to the ides of the KFD. Many apologists argue it is not canon thus not doctrine. But it has been taught over the pulpit, in manuals, and reiterated in oh so many ways that it has to be doctrine and in fact was once something LDS were quite proud of teaching as a unique and wonderful idea.

So who should we believe? You or the Prophets and apostles who taught this as doctrine as well as an FP that issued an official statement of doctrine about it?

Temple ceremonies are not in canon nor have they been sustained by the body of the Church. Yet the need for them is doctrinal. The Lectures on Faith were canonized by the process you describe and sustained as the doctrine of the 1835 Doctrine and covenants. Later they were removed from the canon without a vote and relegated to beneficial but not doctrine or on par with the revelations.

JFS argued that his position on evolutions was doctrinal and official and that one could believe different and remain a member but if they taught they would not be considered a member in good standing (See Lowell Bennion Bio-I can get a page reference later if you want). Of course JFS took perhaps too much in himself then because President McKay disagreed with him and was not happy President Smith published Man, His Origin and Destiny behind his back.

Anyway, this was doctrinal. Perhaps not to the level of Canon, but to those who interpret canon it was their understanding of scriptures and thus the doctrine at that time.

Why does it rear its head? I am not sure, It is interesting, it is a difficult issue, maybe some believe rather then sweep it under the rug it would be nice to admit that it was a mistake to teach such things especially if you are correct and it was never doctrine.

One thing is made clear as I read the SWK bio. When the change was made and the statement issues to the public the leaders were very concerned that no admission of error in the past policy be discussed and the the statement should be plain, simple and to the point with a prospective out look. I am ok with that and admire Pres. Kimball's courage and undaunting petitions to the Lord about this and believe the Lord did direct him to make the change.

Thanks
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

GIMR wrote:
Well, I've gone beyond it and, in fact, I was never part of it because my parents never taught me racist attitudes and I was never part of any racial oppression of anyone nor did I ever support such oppression, so I bear no guilt or responsability for it. I guess I have trouble understanding why this rottong corpse won't stay in its grave


LOL! Could this statement be some of the "poop" that Loran speaks of? All you have to do is see his interaction with me, and the racist statements he makes towards me to see just what his thoughts are. He disparages people like the Black Panthers, he thinks Affirmative Action is a joke, and he thinks that any black LDS should just sit back and shut up on this issue, so he can go on with his peter priesthod pontification tirade.


Loran:

As to racism, I don't have a racist bone in my body, never have had, and never will. You'd better take a good look in the mirror before you go throwing that now almost meaningless term around any further.

As to your other points, like most typical leftists, you confuse opposition to policies and ideology with opposition to those at whom those policies are targeted.

The Black Panthers were nothing but a glorified street gang that discovered black power ideology and radical politics. They were a brutal and cynical gourp of thugs, racists, and sociopaths who used the good will and the vast gullibility of the New Left of the time to cover their activities and promote their agenda. They have long been exposed for what they were both by people within and without their organization They were violent, murderous criminals who did little for the black community but prey upon it.

Affirmative Action is no joke; its intsitutionalized discriminatin based on group affiliation. Its immoral, unconstitutional, and completely outside the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I have no idea where you got the idea that I think black LDS should sit back and shut up about anything. If you're reading comphehension problems continue, might I suggest some remedial adult education?
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Coggins7 wrote:The Black Panthers...


Didn't the leader convert to Mormonism?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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