On another board (one, unfortunately, that is inaccessable to those who aren't personally invited) I have found myself in a discussion on Mormonism.
I've worked through a couple of rather large posts (with much hilarity ensuing) and want your opinions on my most recent write-up.
This one is about the Introduction in the beginning of the Book of Mormon (current publication).
Please see the next post for my entire publishment.
Context for this post is rather important.
Many of the people reading this post on my other forum know almost nothing about Mormonism and I only began posting about this subject there because someone told a moderator that I knew my stuff and would make a fine addition to the group.
I've been trying to keep it as simple as possible while still laying out my perspective of the issues.
See my third post in this thread for something I find to be absolutely hysterical.
So. . . Whadd'ya think?
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_Bryan Inks
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So. . . Whadd'ya think?
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_Bryan Inks
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:03 pm
The Book of Mormon.
Extolled as "the most correct book out of any on earth" by Joseph Smith, Mark Twain called it "cloroform in print", this book forms the "core" of the LDS Church.
Purported to be an exact history of the Jews that came to North America approximately 600 years before Christ, this book is held by LDS people to be the "cornerstone" of the religion, "upon which all else rests".
The Introduction page of the Book of Mormon (1985 edition) reads:
Again, pretty powerful stuff, right?
But, as before, there are several major issues. I'm going to break it down into a bit more managable chunks.
First major issue: For something that contains the "fulness of the everlasting gospel" it seems to miss quite a bit of what Joseph Smith and current prophets teach as being required.
For example: There is not one place in the Book of Mormon that states you have to participate in the Temple Ceremonies in order to become exalted.
There is not a single instance in the Book of Mormon that tells you that a man must be married in order to attain Godhood, nor does it ever tell you that a woman can't even get into heaven unless she's married.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones? No where.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven? Again, it doesn't.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God? Oops, that's not there either.
I've got more of these examples, but you get the idea.
This one is a bit different. There aren't any real claims given here other than the Nephites/Jaredites (of which there is absolutely no evidence for, and believe me, there should be but I'll talk about that later).
Second, if these Jewish people who are called Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians, why does no Native American have any Jewish DNA? Why do they have absolutely no commonality in language, beliefs, knowledge, history, even physical attributes? You would think that for an entire people to be decendants of the Jews, there would be at least something, but again, I digress. I'll talk more about that later as well.
Except, as I said above, it doesn't put for the "doctrines" of the gospel and the "Plan of Salvation" mentioned in the Book of Mormon leaves out several key and rather important details (such as the three levels of heaven, men becoming gods, polygamy, etc.)
The same hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York where several million people died in battle, with their chariots, steel swords, steel shields, etc. . . yet none of which has any remains (either in the form of rust residue or calcium deposits).
This is the same hill that Joseph claims to have gotten the plates from and the same hill about which Joseph claimed was "hollow and filled with wagonloads of gold", again, none of which has any evidence for it, despite multiple excavations.
First off, the "translation" of the plates consisted of Joseph Smith placing his seer stone (that he used to con men into paying him money for treasure hunting) into a hat and then placing his face into the hat.
This "perfect" translation contains so many passages that are lifted from the King James Version of the Bible it isn't funny. It even includes the same mistranslations from Greek to English that the KJV has. . . Oh, and was it mentioned that these Jewish people wrote this "sacred" record in the language of their racial enemies? Joseph Smith called it "Reformed Egyptian".
I think it looks like chicken scratch.
A well-educated man by the name of Charles Anthon, when shown this "Reformed Egyptian" language described it as, "... all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular columns, and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calender given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it was derived."
The Mexican Calender part is believed to have been located after the tear that shows on the right side of the picture.
That picture? Yeah, that's the exact piece of paper that Joseph Smith gave to Martin Harris.
And I'll get into the thousands of changes that have been made to the Book of Mormon at a later time (many of which are extremely important as they completely alter the LDS concept of the Trinity).
Secondy, who really cares how many languages and countries a book is published in? Including this in the context implies that if so many copies exist all over the world it must be true. This is a logical fallacy.
Except that the Book of Mormon directly contradicts God's words in the Bible in several key instances. If the Bible is God's word (which I'm not claiming) why the hell would he contradict himself? Isn't he supposed to be perfect?
This quote and the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible is one of the major peeves that Christians have against Mormonism.
Most of whom later denied experiencing anything like what is described. Several of whom admitted that they were coerced by Joseph into signing the document. And all of whom, when describing the incident, relate a completely different rendition.
Also, all but three of these men were kicked out of the church by Joseph and called "the worst of liars" and if I recall correctly, "most wicked men".
The three that weren't kicked out? Joseph's father and two of his brothers.
Oh, but Christ and his apostles taught that this was the wrong way to know truth.
Granted, faith and all that blah plays a huge role of it, but for something that professes to be Christian. . . it sure does contradict Christ a hell of a lot.
So. . . somehow, believing that a book is true means you know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, Christ is the Savior and the Church that published the book is true.
How do we know this is true? Because the Church tells us it is true. How do we know what the Church says is true? Because the book published by them tells you it is.
Anyone else seeing circular logic?
I think I'm about done for the night. I've had a busy day and this post has taken me about 7 hours (in between calls).
Extolled as "the most correct book out of any on earth" by Joseph Smith, Mark Twain called it "cloroform in print", this book forms the "core" of the LDS Church.
Purported to be an exact history of the Jews that came to North America approximately 600 years before Christ, this book is held by LDS people to be the "cornerstone" of the religion, "upon which all else rests".
The Introduction page of the Book of Mormon (1985 edition) reads:
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
In addition to Joseph Smith, the Lord provided for eleven others to see the gold plates for themselves and to be special witnesses of the truth and divinity of the Book of Mormon. Their written testimonies are included herewith as “The Testimony of Three Witnesses” and “The Testimony of Eight Witnesses.”
We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.)
Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.
Again, pretty powerful stuff, right?
But, as before, there are several major issues. I'm going to break it down into a bit more managable chunks.
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
First major issue: For something that contains the "fulness of the everlasting gospel" it seems to miss quite a bit of what Joseph Smith and current prophets teach as being required.
For example: There is not one place in the Book of Mormon that states you have to participate in the Temple Ceremonies in order to become exalted.
There is not a single instance in the Book of Mormon that tells you that a man must be married in order to attain Godhood, nor does it ever tell you that a woman can't even get into heaven unless she's married.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones? No where.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven? Again, it doesn't.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God? Oops, that's not there either.
I've got more of these examples, but you get the idea.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
This one is a bit different. There aren't any real claims given here other than the Nephites/Jaredites (of which there is absolutely no evidence for, and believe me, there should be but I'll talk about that later).
Second, if these Jewish people who are called Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians, why does no Native American have any Jewish DNA? Why do they have absolutely no commonality in language, beliefs, knowledge, history, even physical attributes? You would think that for an entire people to be decendants of the Jews, there would be at least something, but again, I digress. I'll talk more about that later as well.
The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
Except, as I said above, it doesn't put for the "doctrines" of the gospel and the "Plan of Salvation" mentioned in the Book of Mormon leaves out several key and rather important details (such as the three levels of heaven, men becoming gods, polygamy, etc.)
After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
The same hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York where several million people died in battle, with their chariots, steel swords, steel shields, etc. . . yet none of which has any remains (either in the form of rust residue or calcium deposits).
This is the same hill that Joseph claims to have gotten the plates from and the same hill about which Joseph claimed was "hollow and filled with wagonloads of gold", again, none of which has any evidence for it, despite multiple excavations.
In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.
First off, the "translation" of the plates consisted of Joseph Smith placing his seer stone (that he used to con men into paying him money for treasure hunting) into a hat and then placing his face into the hat.
This "perfect" translation contains so many passages that are lifted from the King James Version of the Bible it isn't funny. It even includes the same mistranslations from Greek to English that the KJV has. . . Oh, and was it mentioned that these Jewish people wrote this "sacred" record in the language of their racial enemies? Joseph Smith called it "Reformed Egyptian".
I think it looks like chicken scratch.
A well-educated man by the name of Charles Anthon, when shown this "Reformed Egyptian" language described it as, "... all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular columns, and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calender given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it was derived."
The Mexican Calender part is believed to have been located after the tear that shows on the right side of the picture.
That picture? Yeah, that's the exact piece of paper that Joseph Smith gave to Martin Harris.
And I'll get into the thousands of changes that have been made to the Book of Mormon at a later time (many of which are extremely important as they completely alter the LDS concept of the Trinity).
Secondy, who really cares how many languages and countries a book is published in? Including this in the context implies that if so many copies exist all over the world it must be true. This is a logical fallacy.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Except that the Book of Mormon directly contradicts God's words in the Bible in several key instances. If the Bible is God's word (which I'm not claiming) why the hell would he contradict himself? Isn't he supposed to be perfect?
This quote and the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible is one of the major peeves that Christians have against Mormonism.
In addition to Joseph Smith, the Lord provided for eleven others to see the gold plates for themselves and to be special witnesses of the truth and divinity of the Book of Mormon. Their written testimonies are included herewith as “The Testimony of Three Witnesses” and “The Testimony of Eight Witnesses.”
Most of whom later denied experiencing anything like what is described. Several of whom admitted that they were coerced by Joseph into signing the document. And all of whom, when describing the incident, relate a completely different rendition.
Also, all but three of these men were kicked out of the church by Joseph and called "the worst of liars" and if I recall correctly, "most wicked men".
The three that weren't kicked out? Joseph's father and two of his brothers.
We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.)
Oh, but Christ and his apostles taught that this was the wrong way to know truth.
Granted, faith and all that blah plays a huge role of it, but for something that professes to be Christian. . . it sure does contradict Christ a hell of a lot.
Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.
So. . . somehow, believing that a book is true means you know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, Christ is the Savior and the Church that published the book is true.
How do we know this is true? Because the Church tells us it is true. How do we know what the Church says is true? Because the book published by them tells you it is.
Anyone else seeing circular logic?
I think I'm about done for the night. I've had a busy day and this post has taken me about 7 hours (in between calls).
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_Bryan Inks
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:03 pm
Now for something I find completely hysterical.
Context: Darkslider = Me. Tor = LDS guy that decided to try and butt heads with me.
Anyone see it?
Context: Darkslider = Me. Tor = LDS guy that decided to try and butt heads with me.
Tor wrote:Darkslider wrote:Oh. Makes sense. The problem I'm seeing is that you classify me as "anti-whatever" with a heavily implied context of Mormonism. Whereas, in reality, I'm "pro-truth". So you can turn your warning lights off so they don't drain the battery.
I'll stand my my original statement, thanks.
And for that matter, if anyone would really like to discuss Mormonism from a non-biased and reputable source, I'd be happy to start a thread.
That is, if there's actually some interest?
Anyone see it?
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_Sam Harris
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am
And for that matter, if anyone would really like to discuss Mormonism from a non-biased and reputable source, I'd be happy to start a thread.
In other words, let me direct you to the land of the "warm and fuzzy" and all that is "faith promoting". I call it unbiased, because in reality it is biased in my direction, however I don't have the intellectual integrity to tell you that.
What is this hallowed place you ask?
www.LDS.org
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi