truth dancer wrote:If you don't believe in Joseph Smith you won't be with God. If you don't believe the Golden plates were real you won't be with your family in heaven. If you don't believe the Prophet is receving information from Jesus Christ you will not make it to the CKHL. If you drink tea, coffee, or don't pay enough money, you will not be worthy to be with God. If you wear the wrong form of clothing you will be refused as you won't make it past the guards in heaven. If you don't abide by all the covenants you will be in Satan's power. If you don't believe the correct things you are harming your loved ones. If you doubt or question, Satan will move in to influence you. If you aren't obedient you will be punished.....
I could go on and on and on and on....
Call it what you will, I don't think it is a healthy way to live life, nor do I think fear or shame is the best motivator for goodness.
~dancer~
By instilling this fear and shame, they are able to maintain a measure of controll over the congregation. If you where to force the behavioral dogmas of Mormonism on people, they would rebel. Make them think they are following via their own choice and will. And you then own them body and mind.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
Mister Scratch wrote:So, I guess my question is this: Is paranoia and inherent aspect of the LDS Church?
I don't know that it is intentional, but I do think it is an aspect that has become an integral part of Mormonism. Perhaps that is inevitable for any church that takes an 'all or nothing' approach, as does the LDS Church. I would like to see it deemphasized out of existence, but I think it is just too ingrained in Mormon culture.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Do you mind if an "outsider" with many LDS friends in real life and in cyberspace offers a comment or two? I will be brief. What I see happening in the lives of my friends and also online friends, is a kind of coercion. I don't mean that to insult the LDS here and will explain as best I can. Haven't had much sleep so bear with me. The coercion I see comes from various parts of the LDS community and is, in my view, based on doctrines.
For example, the Temple Ceremonies wherein members are not permitted to discuss even between husband and wife, what they've experienced there and how they feel about it.
In my mind, that sets up a sort of polarization within the marital relationship where even if one spouse has doubts, feels uncomfortable, they are not permitted to discuss it with the other spouse. I don't think that type of dynamic where a partner feels they must withhold their true feelings from the other, is healthy.
Let me try to connect a dot or two between my above statement and your "paranoia" question.
When a member is taught not to discuss their experiences and how they feel about them with other members, their own family member and their own spouse, I think sets up an unhealthy dynamic.
I compare that with the behavior I see in TBM's online in relation to doubting or ex-LDS who almost appear to be obsessed with unearthing personal information about the posters. They needle them about anonymity..why? If the posters were to actually give their first names, my guess is the result would be something on the order of the Itchy Blog or character assasination in real life. I have read more than one threatening comment online to "out" someone to their Bishop or SP.
Pokatator wrote:Basically I think the whole church is held together by fear and guilt.
I tend to agree. During my "church years" i was plagued many times with a deeply seated depression. In my following years having left and realised that the shame, guilt, and paranoia of "not being good enough" where all figments of what the church wanted me to feel. Since leaving, my sense of self worth has sky-rocketed. I've not had a depressive episode yet!(and that includes that I've had the death of a grand parent since)
Sono
I need to let go of more stuff...I have been able to let go of a lot in the past year...Panic attacks and manic behavior have been the result of letting go...but I am now feeling so much better knowing I can let go...and it has been hard...I need to find out where my self worth lies...where it starts and where it begins...I have the Mormon culture in me so deep..and everytime I talk to my F**$*$ed up parents they bring the guilt right back...and they are hard core TBM's...and have never never been happy with me and my family...I still thank my Hubby for helping me to let go of much my guilt...he has told me for years that I owe nothing to my parents...and once I realized that no matter what I do will never, never be good enough for them...
Back to the point of the thread yes guilt and paranoia are powerful weapons
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
Mister Scratch wrote:Some of the recent goings-on at MAD, along with some of the issues raised by Plutarch have got me thinking. It's well known that there is such a thing as "Catholic Guilt"---a sense of shame in one's self that stems from having to go to confession, constant temptation, and ever-present sin. My question for this thread is: would the LDS equivalent of that be "Mormon Paranoia"? I tend to think "yes." For one thing, Church folklore is rife with stories of Satan lurking in real-life situations. Another aspect of this is surely the Church's hyper-preoccupation with secrecy: in the temple, vis-a-vis finances, with portions of the Church archives, the way the Brethren are cordoned off from the rank-and-file, and so on. On top of this are the "surveillance" type aspects in the Church: the SCMC, Church security agents tailing people, SCMC agents making recordings of people, etc.
There even appears to be ecclesiastic sanction for this, found in Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone's infamous talk, "A Self-Inflicted Purging":
I am going to use a visual aid tonight. But we don’t have one, so, in your mind’s eye, wherever you are across the far corners of the earth, would you picture a huge scroll sliding down from the ceiling? On it are listed the names of those who purchased pornographic literature. The list is large enough so that all may see. Is your name on the list?
Did you buy some pornographic literature?
Now suppose those names are removed, and the names of all those who attended or viewed x-rated movies are presented so that all who are in the congregation may see. Again, is your name on the list?
Now, my young friends, and I am sorry to say, many adults, how about all those of you who have a masturbation problem? If the names of those who had the problem were projected across this big, huge scroll, would your name be there, or would you be able to sit back confident and pure in heart?
And, in a few cases, what if we had the names of those who had a homosexual problem? What if their names were on this huge scroll? Their names removed, then what if we had those who are adulterers, who are serving in priesthood positions, unbeknownst to many, unbeknownst unto anyone except themselves and the partner in sin?
Again let us talk about a self-inflicting purging. My young friends, how about all of you who have committed fornication? Or have been involved in petting? Suppose their names were on this huge scroll, so that all may see. Now, I can tell you this, I bear my solemn witness that if you do not self-inflict a purging in your lives, the time may well come when there might not be a scroll, but it will be as though there were. It may be as though it had been shouted from the tops of houses. People cannot hide sin. You cannot mock God and hold the Lord’s holy priesthood and pretend to propose that you are his servant.
I find it curious that Elder Featherstone thought to use this particular "visual aid," apparently under the assumption that "exposure" would be precisely the thing to scare all these young priesthood holders into obedience, as it were. Couple this with the ubiquitous ad hominems one finds on MAD and in FROB, and one begins to see a strong case supporting the view that one of the Church's chief weapons against not only critics, but also members, is paranoia induced by fear of exposure. Featherstone claims that this is a "self-inflicted" purging and yet, paradoxically, his means of encouraging it is by threatening everyone with a hypothetical exposure. So, I guess my question is this: Is paranoia and inherent aspect of the LDS Church?
All this from a guy who lives in mortal fear of a very small and obscure Church committee that is essentially nothing more than a news clipping service. Can you say "PROJECTION"? ;-)
Pokatator wrote:Basically I think the whole church is held together by fear and guilt.
I tend to agree. During my "church years" i was plagued many times with a deeply seated depression. In my following years having left and realised that the shame, guilt, and paranoia of "not being good enough" where all figments of what the church wanted me to feel. Since leaving, my sense of self worth has sky-rocketed. I've not had a depressive episode yet!(and that includes that I've had the death of a grand parent since)
Sono
I need to let go of more stuff...I have been able to let go of a lot in the past year...Panic attacks and manic behavior have been the result of letting go...but I am now feeling so much better knowing I can let go...and it has been hard...I need to find out where my self worth lies...where it starts and where it begins...I have the Mormon culture in me so deep..and everytime I talk to my F**$*$ed up parents they bring the guilt right back...and they are hard core TBM's...and have never never been happy with me and my family...I still thank my Hubby for helping me to let go of much my guilt...he has told me for years that I owe nothing to my parents...and once I realized that no matter what I do will never, never be good enough for them...
Back to the point of the thread yes guilt and paranoia are powerful weapons
Its a very long process if youve deeply rooted your "self" into what the church is and what it represents. One thing that helped me that might help you, is learning to meditate. To have a way of objectively and purposefully giving very carefull consideration as to who "you" are compaired to what was presented to you. The best way i describe it is unraveling the knots that you tie yourself in by jumping through so many hoops with all the mental gymnastics that the church makes you go through. (mental discog) For a time i questioned every choice i made, to figure out where the answer actualy came from. It took a while, but i was able to seperate what made up "me" and what constituted "the church". Ill admit, there are still a few "knots", but since i understand the process now, I can now very quickly re-evaluate choices and come up with one im comfortable with. Rather than the one that was made for me.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
wenglund wrote:All this from a guy who lives in mortal fear of a very small and obscure Church committee that is essentially nothing more than a news clipping service. Can you say "PROJECTION"? ;-)
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Wade, I used to work there, and I met the head of that committee (at that time it was Bill Nelson [I'm not good at remembering names after 15 years]). It's not a clipping service, though that is one of its functions.
If you're going to insult someone, at least do it accurately.
wenglund wrote:All this from a guy who lives in mortal fear of a very small and obscure Church committee that is essentially nothing more than a news clipping service. Can you say "PROJECTION"? ;-)
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Wade, I used to work there, and I met the head of that committee (at that time it was Bill Nelson [I'm not good at remembering names after 15 years]). It's not a clipping service, though that is one of its functions.
If you're going to insult someone, at least do it accurately.
I met Pres. Kimball in the halls of a church building once, and I flew home from my mission in the seat next to President Hinckley's wife. It is essentially a clipping service.
If you protend to hypocritically chasten someone, at least do it with more credibility than a one-time meeting with someone years ago.
wenglund wrote:I met Pres. Kimball in the halls of a church building once, and I flew home from my mission in the seat next to President Hinckley's wife. It is essentially a clipping service.
If you protend to hypocritically chasten someone, at least do it with more credibility than a one-time meeting with someone years ago.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
I didn't just meet him once. I worked there and did some work with his department several times over 2 years, Wade. Like I said, I remember that name, but I don't remember some of the names I worked with every day. So, I'm saying I may be wrong about the name. I'm not wrong about what the committee does. He was a nice man, and I don't think there's anything sinister about the committee. But to write it off as a clipping service is kind of silly.