$$$$

[_Mercury]

The notion that anyone would have a credit card, for their own personal use, with "an unlimited spending account" is simply absurd. Why would they then need a measly $70k? This assertion requires a serious amount of gullibility to accept. The sort of gullibility that needs to be set alongside all the anti-Mormon/ex-Mormon claims of "critical thinking" and such.

Regards,
Pahoran

You don't know this, Pahoran. No one does. The books AREN'T OPEN! What we know is that in 1959, the GA's were such poor stewards of the tithes and offerings, THEY CLOSED THE BOOKS! And they haven't been open since. Our ancestors would likely be very upset, but we're so gullible, we take their word for it.

Uh, actually, I do. My mission president (who sealed my wife and me) was over all of tithing and over the church welfare system for nine years, and while I was financial secretary he trained me on everything, including how the church keeps track of spending records of everyone. I had to fix a big problem one time and he told me one of the fastest ways to get a church disciplinary council brought against you is to mess with the church's funds. He told me what everyone is and isn't allowed to spend money on, and a bunch of other cool things. You guys can speculate all you want and throw all kinds of numbers all over the place, but you're all just entertaining yourselves. There's actually nothing strange or dramatic about anything that goes on behind those doors you speculate so much about.

The church does not operate straight from tithe to payee. They do it the "old money" way: Borrowing against assets.

[_Mercury]

1) Many GA's live the law of consecration.

Hahahaa!!!!!!

When did they turn in all their wealth to the church? I'd like to see that!

2) Would you mind providing a source for your figures, because my sources say something different.

Considering your source is more likely misidentified indigestion, I'd trust sources other than yours.

3) Most of their wealth is the result of a lifetime of hard work and saving.

and connections within their circle which surprisingly are of other GA's and their family members.

It's funny, I told someone once that my mission president had to pay for everything while he served, accept for small travel expenses that were reimbursed him.

Don't know when you served but my mission president has an expense account that he used for everything.

I was then subjected to heavy criticism because my church makes their higher ups pay their own way during their times of service. Now someone throws out a figure and smirks as he speculates on how members of the church reconcile such a disgusting and embarrassing fact with their testimonies that general authorities are decent people.

Smirk? More like stare at you as you recoil and try to figure out how to justify such a fact.

Oh, the shame.

Yes, it is a shame that rather wealthy individuals get a bottomless credit card, of which Steve Benson referenced when (was it Kimball?) a certain deceased prophets wife would not relinquish and ended up running an exorbitant tab on?

These people give up their lives for the church and you're critical because they receive a stipend?!? You'll criticize anything you can about the church, won't you?

No one has given up their life for this "church". The stipend receive is a direct and blatant opposition to the holy business man image they try to portray.

You will criticize anything about exmormons who know what they are talking about, won't you?

[_maklelan]

...one of the fastest ways to get a church disciplinary council brought against you is to mess with the church's funds.

Wow, this statement is so ironic I think you just burned out the irony quotient of the universe.

Is it improper to want to ensure that people who have access to millions and millions of dollars appropriate it correctly?

[_Mercury]

...one of the fastest ways to get a church disciplinary council brought against you is to mess with the church's funds.

Wow, this statement is so ironic I think you just burned out the irony quotient of the universe.

Is it improper to want to ensure that people who have access to millions and millions of dollars appropriate it correctly?

What is more appropriate: Starving individuals in the third world or a mall in SLC?

Knowing your defense of the church with moral bankruptcy ruling the themes of your posts, i doubt the answer you give to this will be at all enlightening. So think about this: was it better to buy a big mall or would it have been better to put money into a charitable endeavor? When yovu answer this please include the monetary amount of charitable endeavors spent by MormonCorp in the past year.

[_maklelan]

1) Many GA's live the law of consecration.

Hahahaa!!!!!!

When did they turn in all their wealth to the church? I'd like to see that!

2) Would you mind providing a source for your figures, because my sources say something different.

Considering your source is more likely misidentified indigestion, I'd trust sources other than yours.

3) Most of their wealth is the result of a lifetime of hard work and saving.

and connections within their circle which surprisingly are of other GA's and their family members.

It's funny, I told someone once that my mission president had to pay for everything while he served, accept for small travel expenses that were reimbursed him.

Don't know when you served but my mission president has an expense account that he used for everything.

I was then subjected to heavy criticism because my church makes their higher ups pay their own way during their times of service. Now someone throws out a figure and smirks as he speculates on how members of the church reconcile such a disgusting and embarrassing fact with their testimonies that general authorities are decent people.

Smirk? More like stare at you as you recoil and try to figure out how to justify such a fact.

Oh, the shame.

Yes, it is a shame that rather wealthy individuals get a bottomless credit card, of which Steve Benson referenced when (was it Kimball?) a certain deceased prophets wife would not relinquish and ended up running an exorbitant tab on?

These people give up their lives for the church and you're critical because they receive a stipend?!? You'll criticize anything you can about the church, won't you?

No one has given up their life for this "church". The stipend receive is a direct and blatant opposition to the holy business man image they try to portray.

You will criticize anything about exmormons who know what they are talking about, won't you?

It's one thing to know what you're talking about, and quite another to ejaculate strings of silly assertions with nothing to back them up but the promise of harsher insults should your vituperative boasts go unreverenced. In every post I've ever seen you make you've failed to provide anything of any substance whatsoever, and I'm still waiting on responses for several of the idiotic things you've asserted. I criticize you because your arguments are a joke, your insults are childish, and your overconfidence betrays the low self-esteem and insecurity that drive you to continue to latch yourself to an organization that still manages to run your life despite your hatred for it. I'll respond to you if you ever provide a substantive post or a suorce, but until then I shall ignore you.

[_maklelan]

What is more appropriate: Starving individuals in the third world or a mall in SLC?

I lived in the third world for two years, and as a branch president I provided food, money and jobs to the people you now reference with such ignorance. How many jobs do you think this mall will provide for needy families here in Salt Lake? How much money is already spent on charities in other countries? Do you know? I do. My home page is thehungersite.com, and every time I get on the computer I click on a button and automatically donate food to starving people all over the world for free. You pretend to be a philanthropist. Make it your homepage. If you don't then your moral superiority is just a tool you use to try to make others feel bad, and if that's the case then you're a joke. Every week I'm gonna ask you how many donations were made the previous week, and every time you fail to answer is gonna be a glaring testimony that you're a huge hypocrite. I have abolsutely no doubt in my mind how you'll respond to this.

Knowing your defense of the church with moral bankruptcy ruling the themes of your posts, i doubt the answer you give to this will be at all enlightening. So think about this: was it better to buy a big mall or would it have been better to put money into a charitable endeavor? When yovu answer this please include the monetary amount of charitable endeavors spent by MormonCorp.

I can only assume that this question means you don't know. In that you're entirely unaware of our charitable undertakings, whatever I say will be suspect by you, so I'm gonna keep that informatio nto myself for now. When you've shown you can admit you're not a better person than everyone else on the planet then I'll treat you like a grown-up. Until then you're just a little kid who's mad because he feels hurt by the big bad church.

[_ajax18]

Pahoran why did President Hinckley say, "When you compare our stipend to the earnings of high level business executives, it's not very much."

To me that gives a direct indication of how the brethren see it and what ballpark they're playing in when they say "not much", and how they probably run the finances. Why not open the books? Then there would be nothing to argue about. What are they trying to hide?

How is getting paid from the profits of a church run business different from tithing? It's still money that ultimately came from the sacrifices of the members.

Whether or not they live better than the average tithe payer seems pretty obvious to me. Just look at them. What do they drive, what do they wear, where do they eat? The answer I've always been given is that they made this money before they were called to "leave their nets." Yet I seriously doubt this is the entire story.

Did you have a problem with the United Way when we found out its director was pulling a 500k a year salary. I certainly did.

[_Mercury]

Just as I thought. When someone asks you to provide hard data you complain. Par for the course.

What is more appropriate: Starving individuals in the third world or a mall in SLC?

I lived in the third world for two years, and as a branch president I provided food, money and jobs to the people you now reference with such ignorance. How many jobs do you think this mall will provide for needy families here in Salt Lake? How much money is already spent on charities in other countries? Do you know? I do. My home page is thehungersite.com, and every time I get on the computer I click on a button and automatically donate food to starving people all over the world for free. You pretend to be a philanthropist. Make it your homepage. If you don't then your moral superiority is just a tool you use to try to make others feel bad, and if that's the case then you're a joke. Every week I'm gonna ask you how many donations were made the previous week, and every time you fail to answer is gonna be a glaring testimony that you're a huge hypocrite. I have abolsutely no doubt in my mind how you'll respond to this.

I don't care how much you or I donate to charitable groups. It is irrelevant to this discussion. I do not pretend to be a philanthropist, you do. The attempt to guilt me into giving to your charity of choice was pretty good though. Who are you anyways?

As for the number of jobs created, your missing the point so bad its passing way over into rationalization land.

So you once again avoid the question and instead play misdirection and derailment. Par for the course. The facts and emotional ploys you use are as morally bankrupt as the rest of your posts. Frankly we are not talking about your or my charitable donations. Were talking about the corporation you claim to be a church and their charitable donations.

Once again: What is more important, a mall in SLC or 6+ billion dollars in aid to somewhere such as Darfur?

Knowing your defense of the church with moral bankruptcy ruling the themes of your posts, i doubt the answer you give to this will be at all enlightening. So think about this: was it better to buy a big mall or would it have been better to put money into a charitable endeavor? When yovu answer this please include the monetary amount of charitable endeavors spent by MormonCorp.

I can only assume that this question means you don't know. In that you're entirely unaware of our charitable undertakings, whatever I say will be suspect by you, so I'm gonna keep that informatio nto myself for now. When you've shown you can admit you're not a better person than everyone else on the planet then I'll treat you like a grown-up. Until then you're just a little kid who's mad because he feels hurt by the big bad church.

[quote="maklelan"]

Actually I do know. I'm just wondering if you do. Its inthe neighborhood of several million. Compared to the billions in for profit businesses, this is pathetic and paltry. Of course, and I think you can attest to this as a former BP, usually required dunking the recipient of aid first so you could then receive their tithing. That really makes you feel good though, huh? The charitable acts you espouse were more along the lines of an investment. Too bad no one sticks around in the church so you could see the return of investment.

Everything the LDS corporation does is an investment, especially charity. Not a missionary performs hurricane cleanup without first providing free PR, not a ward does large scale charity without a marketing rep sending a press release. And not a soul is given support without first committing to the Mormon church, at least in my experience. Most other donations were given bitterly and with the individuals interest in Mormonism confirmed.

[_Pahoran]

Here on the alleged "Celestial" forum, I found the following expressions of sweetness and light:

Yes, it is a shame that rather wealthy individuals get a bottomless credit card, of which Steve Benson referenced when (was it Kimball?) a certain deceased prophets wife would not relinquish and ended up running an exorbitant tab on?

The alleged "bottomless credit card" is a zero-credibility assertion. If Steve "I'll show how talented I am by singing you a medley of my grandfather" Benson supports that claim then he is lying too.

These people give up their lives for the church and you're critical because they receive a stipend?!? You'll criticize anything you can about the church, won't you?

No one has given up their life for this "church".

Excuse me Vegas Megahater, but it's not a "church," it's a church. And the fact is that many people have given up their lives for it, thanks in no small part to people who have just as much love as, but considerably more courage than, you. Although in this particular instance, I suspect Maklelan meant to say something similar to "dedicate their lives to the Church" or perhaps "give up their careers for the Church." Both are accurate, and no honest person would deny it. Although I've no doubt that there are plenty of swine in this herd who would.

The stipend receive is a direct and blatant opposition to the holy business man image they try to portray.

No. It's not.

You will criticize anything about exmormons who know what they are talking about, won't you?

I don't know. I've never met one.

I have, however, met hate-mongering scumbags who claim to be ex-Mormons, and who will support any criticism of the Church, however pathetically asinine or obviously false, such as "the GA's are only in it for the money," or "Jews are offended when Mormons say they believe in Jesus."

Of course, and I think you can attest to this as a former BP, usually required dunking the recipient of aid first so you could then receive their tithing.

That's a blatant falsehood, which is sufficient to explain why you wrote it.

Everything the LDS corporation does is an investment, especially charity.

That's a blatant falsehood, which is sufficient to explain why you wrote it.

Not a missionary performs hurricane cleanup without first providing free PR,

That's a blatant falsehood, which is sufficient to explain why you wrote it.

not a ward does large scale charity without a marketing rep sending a press release.

That's a blatant falsehood, which is sufficient to explain why you wrote it.

And not a soul is given support without first committing to the Mormon church, at least in my experience.

That's quite contrary to my experience, and I'm not merely claiming Church membership for polemical purposes.

There really isn't anyone you hate more than us, is there?

And there really isn't any lie you're unwilling to tell about us, is there?

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Pahoran]

Pahoran why did President Hinckley say, "When you compare our stipend to the earnings of high level business executives, it's not very much."

Probably because it isn't.

To me that gives a direct indication of how the brethren see it and what ballpark they're playing in when they say "not much", and how they probably run the finances. Why not open the books? Then there would be nothing to argue about. What are they trying to hide?

AFAICT, nothing. But yes, that's the "ballpark they're playing in." That's the "ballpark" they'd all be earning in in the corporate world. That's the earning level most of them were at when they accepted their callings. When many of them had grown children at university. They are, after all, family men, not monks who've spent the last 25 years in a monastery somewhere. Their calls came with very short notice; they did not apply for them.

How is getting paid from the profits of a church run business different from tithing? It's still money that ultimately came from the sacrifices of the members.

"Ultimately" is a very vague word. The point is that no part of the tithing you and I pay (well, that I pay) this year--and throughout my lifetime, in fact--goes into anyone's pocket. (Actually even that isn't quite true: ultimately--there's that word again--it all goes into someone's pocket; for instance, it gets spent to build a chapel, and so goes into the contractor's pocket.) But my tithing isn't being used to support the GA's. It's being used to run the Church.

Whether or not they live better than the average tithe payer seems pretty obvious to me. Just look at them. What do they drive, what do they wear, where do they eat? The answer I've always been given is that they made this money before they were called to "leave their nets." Yet I seriously doubt this is the entire story.

Well, I don't see them at home; I see them out here in the mission field, where they don't drive, they get driven, and they eat in restaurants because they didn't pack the microwave and the toaster. They wear suits because they're going to church meetings. When they see me, I'm wearing a suit, too. Should they assume that I'm wealthy?

Most of them continue to live in the homes they had before they received their calls. I saw Elder Oaks when he was serving as Area President in the Philippines; he was driving (and if you've seen Manila traffic, you'd know what that simple fact says about his courage) a late-model Japanese car. I thought that entirely appropriate.

Did you have a problem with the United Way when we found out its director was pulling a 500k a year salary. I certainly did.

I don't know what that is. But I don't have a lot of working-class prejudice about executive salaries. If you pay peanuts, you'll get monkeys. Everyone remembers CEO's like Lee Iacocca who come on board an ailing company for $1 a year; but what they don't realise is that his remuneration package was structured to give him a considerable bonus when the company turned a profit. Granted that he was taking a risk, the fact is that it paid off and he got well compensated for his success. As he should have been.

Now the Church/charity situation is a little different, and I certainly wouldn't expect the brethren to have profit sharing or productivity bonuses--which were undoubtedly components of their remuneration packages back in the corporate world, for those who came from there--but it seems unreasonable to expect them to accept a Church calling that requires them to sell the family home and yank the kids out of college.

But then that's just me. I'm not a spitefully suspicious apostate.

Regards,
Pahoran