The Mormon God and Conditional Love

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_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Juggler Vain wrote:
GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.

Are you saying that your friends actions say "conditional" but his lips say "unconditional"?

-JV


Yes.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Jason Bourne wrote:
GIMR wrote:

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I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.


Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?


Damnit Jason, I AM NOT EVANGELICAL in your myopic sense!!!!!

Learn the difference between FUNDIE and EVANGELICAL!!!
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

harmony wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.


Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?


No.


And given that the body of Christ is so vast and diverse, and this evangelical personally includes Mormons in that body, you speak for me and all of us?

I am sorry, but when I was Mormon, I just wasn't good enough. For many reasons. My blasted cursed skin of darkness, lack of virginity, bad family, rough edges, I could go on and on.

The God I worship loves me as I am. I am trying to be patient and understand that most people do not understand the difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist Christian. You can be evengelical and be fundie, but you do not have to be. I am evangelical because I am passionate about my faith, but I do not believe that everyone has to be like me. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this difference to LDS, and they're really the only ones I've seen use this. I have not picketed any temples, I pass out no anti tracts, I would have kicked the guy at conference before last who mocked wiping his butt with garments if I were but close enough. I believe 1 Corinthians 12 includes LDS. But I do NOT agree with any tenet that people latch onto God that makes a person less precious than they are.

I understand that the media has given you a very skewed description of what an evangelical Christian is. Right wing, hateful, bigot, etc. But that is not true. My evangelical faith has changed how I see myself, it has raised my self-esteem, it has taught me that even the "less sightly" parts of my character can be used for God's good, and that I'll see that in time. The mistakes I make are not things I look at to condemn myself to hell, rather opportunities for growth. And I can work one on one with God, I don't need some man I barely know to deny me communion or walk me through whatever punishment he sees fit. God alone is enough.

Yes there are evangelical fundies out there....but not every evangelical is fundamentalist. The popular definition is wrong.

The question should be, is the fundamentalist God (who transcends belief systems, by the way) a god of love?

The answer is no.

The TBM god is not a god of love. He is exactly how Infymus described him, and I am so glad to be free.

The militant Islamic god is not a god of love and I fear his adherents.

The fundie Christian god is not a god of love, and I am sickened when I see what he has done to my country, once a melting pot for all nations, now a right-wing nation hell bent on killing our sons and daughters in Iraq, and making sure prayer gets back in schools...and only the Christian prayer, if you please.

Again, evangelical does not always equate to fundamentalist. Just like not all Mormons are TBMs.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

No.


And given that the body of Christ is so vast and diverse, and this evangelical personally includes Mormons in that body, you speak for me and all of us?

I am sorry, but when I was Mormon, I just wasn't good enough. For many reasons. My blasted cursed skin of darkness, lack of virginity, bad family, rough edges, I could go on and on.

The God I worship loves me as I am. I am trying to be patient and understand that most people do not understand the difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist Christian. You can be evengelical and be fundie, but you do not have to be. I am evangelical because I am passionate about my faith, but I do not believe that everyone has to be like me. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this difference to LDS, and they're really the only ones I've seen use this. I have not picketed any temples, I pass out no anti tracts, I would have kicked the guy at conference before last who mocked wiping his butt with garments if I were but close enough. I believe 1 Corinthians 12 includes LDS. But I do NOT agree with any tenet that people latch onto God that makes a person less precious than they are.

I understand that the media has given you a very skewed description of what an evangelical Christian is. Right wing, hateful, bigot, etc. But that is not true. My evangelical faith has changed how I see myself, it has raised my self-esteem, it has taught me that even the "less sightly" parts of my character can be used for God's good, and that I'll see that in time. The mistakes I make are not things I look at to condemn myself to hell, rather opportunities for growth. And I can work one on one with God, I don't need some man I barely know to deny me communion or walk me through whatever punishment he sees fit. God alone is enough.

Yes there are evangelical fundies out there....but not every evangelical is fundamentalist. The popular definition is wrong.

The question should be, is the fundamentalist God (who transcends belief systems, by the way) a god of love?

The answer is no.

The TBM god is not a god of love. He is exactly how Infymus described him, and I am so glad to be free.

The militant Islamic god is not a god of love and I fear his adherents.

The fundie Christian god is not a god of love, and I am sickened when I see what he has done to my country, once a melting pot for all nations, now a right-wing nation hell bent on killing our sons and daughters in Iraq, and making sure prayer gets back in schools...and only the Christian prayer, if you please.

Again, evangelical does not always equate to fundamentalist. Just like not all Mormons are TBMs.


The answer is still "no". And here's why: to an Evangelical Christian, there is always a condition. "If ye love me,...." and "If you repent... ". As long as exaltation and/or salvation is based on repentence, the Atonement is conditional. And as long as there is any possibility of any of God's children being condemned to hell, God's love is conditional.

It's only if you discount some of the most emphasized verses in the Bible that a person can call God's love unconditional.

PS. This country was never a melting pot of all nations. That's a myth.
_Gazelam
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Our relationship to the Father

Post by _Gazelam »

First, lets understand our relationship to the Father.

D&C 93:29-30
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

God organized our inteligences. Our spirits are eternal. We saw the Father, and what he had accomplished, and desired that for ourselves. The plan of salvation is set forth for us to gain an understanding of the type of life God lives, so that we can share in that glory and take part in creation.

D&C 93:26-28
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

What kind of truth do we want to learn and understand? The truth concerning the things of eternity. To learn the culture of God, and to perceive things as he perceives them.

Concerning the kingdsoms.

D&C 88:35
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

The Laws of God are eternal. The Laws are given to us to increase our understanding of eternal things. Are we meant to focus ourselves on every jot and tittle of the law and obsess over them? No, that would be foolish. If we focus instead on keeping the spirit of the Holy Ghost with us, we will be obedient to the Laws on our own without even undertanding them all. To live contrary to this separates us from the culture of our Father in heaven, so that if we were to die in sin, we would be unable, and miserable, to live in the company of the Father.

D&C 88:36-39
36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.
39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

Lets put this in everyday terms. There are different personalities. I personally don't enjoy sports, I would rateher be at home reading a book. A day at the baseball stadium would be miserable for me because I have no interest in it. Just as a baseball player would hate to sit anf read a book at home, he would rather be playing his game.

There are those of us who simply by our nature do not wish to live as the Father does, or are incapable of living that way because of a rebellious spirit. Satan desired to be as the Father, but because of his attitude he was rejected. The commandments are there to not only instuct us, but to filter out irreverent attitudes.

"Every Law God has given us is of such a nature that, by keeping it, we are preserved, perfected and sanctified. If we keep the Word of Wisdom, our bodies will be kept pure. If we observe the law of tithing, we shall learn to be unselfish and honest. If we pray, we shall hold communion with the Holy Spirit. if we try to do our duty in everything, we shall come, day by day, nearer to perfection.

On the other hand, those who refuse to be governed by law and are a law unto themselves cannot be sanctified. They are outside the pale of mercy and justice and judgement, as well as Law, and must remain "filthy still". it is only when we obey God's laws that we have claim upon His mercy. Justice will take into account, in the judgement, every honest effort to do the will of God." ( Doctrine and Covenants Commentary, Deseret Book Company, 1951)

Sanctification
Obedience to the commandments invites the Holy Ghost into our lives, and besides instructing and guideing us, he also sanctifies our Bodies.

D&C 88:15-18
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

The Holy Ghost both prepares our Spirit and our body for Celestial Glory.

D&C 88:21-24
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

There is a place prepared for all, where they will abide with those who share their interests. But it is only in the Celestial kingdom that there is a continuation, where a coule will remained married and have progeny.

vs. 24

Image
Elder Charles W. Penrose stated:

"There is one class which will be different from all the rest. They shall be brought forth, the Lord says, but they will go back into their own place. They would not receive that which they might have had; they would not obey that which they might have obeyed. They received the light and the truth and then would not use it in the way that God had appointed. They would not go on unto perfection by keeping every word that proceeded from the mouth of God, but prostituted the power God had given them to rise to the highest heights, but sunk down to the lowest depths; denying the truth revealed to them; sheding innocent blood; consenting to the death of Christ; thus sinning against the Holy Ghost and becoming so corrupt and abominable that they cannot be redeemed. But they shall be brought forth from the grave and become subject to the devil and his angels in eternity. What is their end we do not know; nobody knows, the Lord says. Some people are inquireing about the end of these sons of perdition. The Lord says no man knows it, that the end thereof and the height and extent and the depth thereof no man knoweth, and if the Lord does reveal it to some, He shuts up the vision. What, then, is the "second death"? Why, the Lord tells us what that is, in His Revelation in the twenty-ninth section of the Doctrine and Covenants. It is eternal banishment from His presence. He is the source of light and truth and power and glory and happiness and joy and dominion and increase forever, of which they will all be deprived. Being shut right out from the light, these shall go away into outer darkness, where no ray of light comes, spiritual or physical - no ray of light from sun or moon or twinkling star or even a comet, to be in outer darkness; and no wonder there is "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth," to use the Scripture expression" (Address at Salt Lake City, October 4th, 1914).

Those cast out are not driven away by the Father, they remove themselves through disobedience and rebellion.

These reject Christ and his teachings, in whose name salvation is found by taking upon ourselves his name and emulateing his actions. Being of service to others, honoring the Priesthood, blessing those who come in contact with us, and shareing the light of the gospel.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_harmony
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Re: Our relationship to the Father

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:First, lets understand our relationship to the Father.

D&C 93:29-30
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

God organized our inteligences. Our spirits are eternal. We saw the Father, and what he had accomplished, and desired that for ourselves. The plan of salvation is set forth for us to gain an understanding of the type of life God lives, so that we can share in that glory and take part in creation.


You state this as if you think it's a fact. So... let's see your foundation for this. If you aren't prepared to show your foundation (and you aren't, because you can't... not because you don't want to, but simply because it doesn't exist... in essence, I'm telling you to prove God exists and we both know that can't be done), please do not make factual statements you can't back up. Say something like "I believe..." or "Mormons believe..." Because no one else is buying this as facts, as it makes you (and the church and everyone in it including me, by extension) look really foolish (not mention lacking in any sort of scientific thought).
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

For anyone who really truly cares to know what the differences are between fundies and evangelicals...and their individual views of God...

To quote an owner of another board...

To me, a fundamentalist today is somebody too ignorant to take scripture as whole, look at it as a recipe book, use it to preach hellfireanddamnation, &c., missing entirely the work of Jesus (though often giving lip service to it).

Fundamentalist almost directly implies ignorant and uneducated on the Bible as a whole.



Picking and choosing hellfire scriptures taken out of context by those who use them to say that my God is not a god of love (I would not have anything to do with him if he were not) does not make the evangelical view of God one of conditional love.

Personally, I could not deal with a relationship with a diety who was ready to condemn me for every fault I had. What did Christ minister and die for? I am evangelical because I like to spread the good news, that God loves us. I am excited about my faith. But I am not in the business of telling people they need to be like me. Hence, I am not fundie.

But perhaps anyone who hasn't drawn their conclusion already can take a look at the discussion on this board...

http://www.grokutah.com/boards/viewtopi ... al&start=0
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

jason Bourne:

Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?

Jersey Girl: I think I want to respond to this. I think the evangelical Christian God loves unconditionally. I do think there are rewards and consequences for conduct and choices.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

GIMR wrote:Well thank you, Harmony. You have just told me what I believe. I stand corrected.


No, I told you what Evangelicals believe. I spent my first 18 years as an Evangelical, GIMR. It's not like I didn't grow up in that world.
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