The Mormon God and Conditional Love

[_Sam Harris]

Amen, Liz. And the same thing goes for mainstream Christianity, including the evangelical faith, for those of us who are willing to research.

Well, GIMR, I guess that's why progressive LDS(me) and progressive EV's(you) may be the future! ;) It's definitely why we get along so well. LOL

I guess what bothers me the most about the whole concept of "final judgement" is that learning is a continual process.

One thing I have learned as a teacher is that you never stop learning.

Would a God who unconditionally loves all of His children really create a "cut-off date" for his children to have the opportunity to be with him? That sounds more like corporate America than Heaven.

[/b]

Hey Liz, I missed this post earlier this afternoon.

Have you ever seen the movie What Dreams May Come? Well, they made a debauchery of the book, but I really liked the book's interpretation of heaven. Like in the LDS faith, there were multiple levels. Whatever state you died in, that was the state you went to heaven in, they called it Summerland in the book. But you had the opportunity to progress there, and progression was infinite. I seriously need to get that book again, I was highlighting it! But this book really touched something within me, that I forgot for a long time until my father died. And I don't know if I was simply being wishful and delusional, or if he really appeared to me, but on April the 20th, 2003, I hugged my dad, and he told me he was ok, that he had learned from his mistakes, and was using the talents he had squandered in life to help people where he was.

If that ain't heaven, hell I don't want to go.

When I read things about judgement, and being chosen in the Bible, I think about the humans who were writing, houses of clay, just like we are, mortals, scared and insecure in the same ways we are! I think that colored their writings. Sadly, those who oppose the Bible as being a complete authoritative text fail to see that they are looking at it from the same POV as those who are all for this. An "either or" situation. And to me, that's not healthy.

I think we judge ourselves enough. I do believe that we may have a "review" of what we've done so far when we leave here, but that won't be the final grade, just a way to show us how we have grown and need to grow.

My best friend bought me The Divine Comedy for my birthday last year. Man what a hard read! But I can't wait to see what Dante has to say about heaven...considering he's damned just about everybody in sight to hell so far...

[_Sam Harris]

And one more thing: I have stated what I believe, READ! I told Roger that I'm a critic of my own faith. I've tried to work with you Jason, all you have done is whine. You whined when I took up your challenge of a debate on the Bible, you whine when I contrast your points, you whine and tell me I think you're bad. I'm tired. You see, while you stay stuck in your views (I'm sorry, was that jab or the truth?) I will be spending yet another semester reading books that refute your views on the evangelical world. Now, do I want to make the dean's list, or do I want to try to convince you of your limited views?

There are people out there who really want to see the Christian world as a whole differently. I'll deal with them.

Look,

I really have tried to interact with you.

I tried above. I said I am open. I asked you to teach me. I asked about what I got wrong.

Based on your insulting regoinder I assume what I have written is accurate.

I am sure you are different then the vast majority of EVs. I am just sharing what I have been told BY EVS! That is it. Go bitch at them.

I see you as the whiner. And I do not see any realy desire on your part to enlighten me. I have asked and told you I am open.

You just seem to ignore that.

If I really told you what I thought at this point after this exhange I would be very impolite.

So, tally ho for now.

If I could "bitch" at the EVs who have put such a bad taste in your mouth, believe me I would. But your claims of openness contrast what you have posted about Calvanism, and your opinion that this, along with the idiot LaHaye, etc. defines the EV faith. That's my beef. It was posted here that EVs as a whole think one way. That's like saying that Mormons are all one mindless breed, even I wouldn't be so crass. I disagreed, and was told in essence that I'm lying, because of what you and others have experienced. That's no better than Juliann telling me that I was a white anti-mormon because my experiences didn't match her view of blacks and the church. I still can't get over that, how hilarous!

As far as enlightening you, I've posted quote after quote after quote from my own home library. I have posted what I believe on several posts here for all to read. If you cannot see that, this is not my fault. I'm sorry, but I am not going to continue going back and forth with a grown-ass man who can dish his opinions but cannot take it when they are refuted.

And I can understand your frustration. Only I don't hold back my words in order to look good to everyone else. After a short lifetime of never really measuring up to people's estimations, I don't really care about that anymore.

[_Brackite]

Hi GIMR,

I am enjoying reading your Posts here on the difference between Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ and Evangelical Christians. While I can see that the Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ view of God is a God who does not love unconditionally, I can see that the Evangelical Christians view of God is a God who does really love unconditionally. I really like this Paragraph you wrote from one of your Posts here:

Personally, I could not deal with a relationship with a diety who was ready to condemn me for every fault I had. What did Christ minister and die for? I am evangelical because I like to spread the good news, that God loves us. I am excited about my faith. But I am not in the business of telling people they need to be like me. Hence, I am not fundie.

[_Jason Bourne]

Some references on the true evangelical view of mankind. Strange that only Calvin was quoted, what about Wesley?

It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.

Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.

"Or to clarify the point further, we may say that sin and evil always have the character of a caricature - that is, of a distorted image that nevertheless embodies certain recognizable features. A human being after the fall, though a travesty of humanity, is stil a human being, not an animal. A humanistic school is still a school (the criticism of secular humanism from this book's POV I don't agree with 100%). A broken relationship is still a relationship. Muddled thinking is still thinking. In each case, what something in fallen creation "still is" points to the enduring goodness of creation"

-Creation Regained, Second Edition Albert M. Wolters, p. 58

Gee, what horrific evangelistic thinking. Good news that we are inherently good! Flying in the face of those who need to portray all of evengelical christianity as right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist garbage.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.

Can I ask who knows the mind of God? If predestination is true, then my lazy, adulterous father is in heaven...but wait a minute, the "vision" that I had (dream, whatever) had him telling me that he was allowed to "fix his mistakes", and that I was no longer to worry about him. Sorry to do this to you Jason, but many LDS jumped on this when I first related the story as "proof" of the validity of their faith. Well, I believe heaven is far more complex than we realize.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.

Again I have to ask who exactly knows the mind of God. Calvin and his followers were part of a fear-based faith that is still alive today, though many people are waking up. Some still need leaders to tell them what to think and how to walk in their own spirituality. But for those who don't, we can reject such an idea.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.

This is so laughable. Let me quote one of my favorite authors, Joyce Meyer.

"We have to motivate ourselves to do what God tells us to do, when He tells us to do it... If we want to enjoy God's best for our lives, we must stop making excuses, stop blaming others, and stop being too busy to do what God says to do. He may tell us to give, help, pray, forgive, apologize, or something else. But whatever it may be, we need to learn to be "now people" who hear God and act quickly when He speaks to us."

Beauty For Ashes, p. 82

There are some here who eschew all organized religion who may find the above distasteful. Forgive me, but I am trying to make a point that not all evangelical teachers (and Joyce's followers number in the millions) teach that God takes you and holds you in "holy prison" to him. You have choices, no one is being pulled back to healthy relationship with God, they usually stay there if this is what they want. Unhealthy, fear based relationship with God, guilt-tripping a la Passion of the Christ might cause some Calvanistic like hostage taking, but that is the ignorance of the person who locked themselves in that prison, not Christianity as a whole. Mel Gibson is a freak.

severance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.

Hmmm...

"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew then for the Gentile" Romans 2:9

Seems God is punishing his "chosen" first. But what happened to once, saved, always saved?

For what's below, replace "Jew" with "Christian", and " the Gentiles" with "mankind"

"17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

How would a person who could never sin again beacuse he or she was saved forever dishonor God?

People throughout history have taken the Bible, both Christian and Hebrew and put their own agendas on it. Calvin, Luther, Smith, Lee, Dylks, the list goes on and on. If you were duped, that is your problem. The various interpretaitons out there is the sole reason why I look to my own, and fine tune my BS meter with regards to Christianity as needed. I'm not seeking any followers, but I am not about to fall under the tattered umbrella/label of someone who has been burned by those who were duped just like they were, only in a different way.

I don't view the Bible as the only truth out there. I think there's truth in it, but if you don't know how to interperet it, you're asking for trouble. And you will be susceptible to the Calvins in the world. Unable to see that Calvanism is not the whole, but a mere approach...that doesn't speak for every conservative Christian out there. Some of us, unlike those who dwell in the faith with all the answers are strong enough to say "I don't know".

Thank you for sharing these thoughts.

I like them and like I said am willing to learn.

[_Jason Bourne]

Amen, Liz. And the same thing goes for mainstream Christianity, including the evangelical faith, for those of us who are willing to research.

Well, GIMR, I guess that's why progressive LDS(me) and progressive EV's(you) may be the future! ;) It's definitely why we get along so well. LOL

I guess what bothers me the most about the whole concept of "final judgement" is that learning is a continual process.

One thing I have learned as a teacher is that you never stop learning.

Would a God who unconditionally loves all of His children really create a "cut-off date" for his children to have the opportunity to be with him? That sounds more like corporate America than Heaven.

[/b]

Hey Liz, I missed this post earlier this afternoon.

Have you ever seen the movie What Dreams May Come? Well, they made a debauchery of the book, but I really liked the book's interpretation of heaven. Like in the LDS faith, there were multiple levels. Whatever state you died in, that was the state you went to heaven in, they called it Summerland in the book. But you had the opportunity to progress there, and progression was infinite. I seriously need to get that book again, I was highlighting it! But this book really touched something within me, that I forgot for a long time until my father died. And I don't know if I was simply being wishful and delusional, or if he really appeared to me, but on April the 20th, 2003, I hugged my dad, and he told me he was ok, that he had learned from his mistakes, and was using the talents he had squandered in life to help people where he was.

If that ain't heaven, hell I don't want to go.

When I read things about judgement, and being chosen in the Bible, I think about the humans who were writing, houses of clay, just like we are, mortals, scared and insecure in the same ways we are! I think that colored their writings. Sadly, those who oppose the Bible as being a complete authoritative text fail to see that they are looking at it from the same POV as those who are all for this. An "either or" situation. And to me, that's not healthy.

I think we judge ourselves enough. I do believe that we may have a "review" of what we've done so far when we leave here, but that won't be the final grade, just a way to show us how we have grown and need to grow.

My best friend bought me The Divine Comedy for my birthday last year. Man what a hard read! But I can't wait to see what Dante has to say about heaven...considering he's damned just about everybody in sight to hell so far...

I loved that movie too. If heaven is like that it will be a great place.

by the way, I believe in a God that loves unconditionally. As I noted in another thread, or maybe early in this one, it seems to me that the LDS Good, or the fundie God (GIMR, note the distinction please) expects us to be better towards our children that He might be to us. I have have some wandering kids. One just spent the past 6 weeks with us and now is heading back to a bad live in relationship. I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices. But I welcome the child with open arms and will always be there and allow her back even if she is making bad choices. Of course if she is in my home and riotous and mean spirited that may be different. But she is learning, perhaps the hard way, about life.

I think God put us here in thus crummy world because it is the place and the way for whatever reason, we can learn to develop god like character. Challenges can bring out the best in us. But they can break us. God knew we would screw up big time. I really hope he takes us all to Him in the end even the ones who maybe screwed up sinning all the way and works with us from there in the eternities. I cannot imagine ever casting out a child that at least is trying. I cannot imagine burning them forever, consigning to outer darkness or giving them the crumbs, as long as they are trying.

[_Sam Harris]

Hello Happy People,

I will be under the radar for the next few days, my night job is in effect tonight and tomorrow night, and the day job is getting kind of tiring, I've been in the field. I'll probably be playing hard this week through sunday. Just so ya know.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hello Happy People,

I will be under the radar for the next few days, my night job is in effect tonight and tomorrow night, and the day job is getting kind of tiring, I've been in the field. I'll probably be playing hard this week through sunday. Just so ya know.

Hi GIMR, i hope ya don't clapse under da load... :-) Night job?? Day job?? Look forward to yer return. You said:

In my readings, unless I'm that much of a bigot, and don't realize it, I see a God of love, who speaks many sprititual languages, as careful perusal of the stories and teachings of the Bible can prove. But I also see a text colored by the cultural perceptions of the men who wrote it, and I take that into context when studying. But I'm beating a dead horse at this point, it is simply easier to come to a conclusion than it is to do the homework involved to back that conclusion. There was a time when I had no idea what the words "tentative monotheism", "retribution principle", and "tradition of the elders" meant among many others. Hence, when reading the Bible, the actions of the people in it, the bloodshed, the agony of the psalms, even the acts of the pharisees in Jesus' time confused and at times horrified me. I see more now, but I want to see even more. Because now I understand how little I do know about God. But again, beating the dead horse.

I say, "you're on track." Understanding/awareness of "God" takes a lot of kicking traditional "dead-horses"! You mentioned reading Spong. IMSCO, he is one good kicker! His last several News Letters deal with the unlikely hood of much of what has been taken as 'gospel-truth'.

I think one should understand that much of the Bible is to be studied not as something to do/emulate but rather not to do! Which was Jesus' teachings--"New Commandments".

Too many folks assume ya gotta 'believe' it if ya read it. Without consideration of the meaning of "believe". Do "I" generally 'believe' the Bible? Yes. Do "I" generally agree with the Bible? No! Ya know what i'm sayin'??? One has to know the book before knowing how to take it.

I believe there was a man named Abraham. What i think of Ab is founded upon how i assess his history. IMSCO, Ab is not a person who i hold in very high regard. Nor do i agree that he is the father of all nations etc etc...

In all of this so-called religious 'pursuit' of righteousness, THE thing that must be 'caught' is the spirit of charity. All else fails and is as "tinkling-brass and banging-symbols"... Seek and ye shall find... Warm regards, Roger

[_Sam Harris]

Hi GIMR,

I am enjoying reading your Posts here on the difference between Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ and Evangelical Christians. While I can see that the Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ view of God is a God who does not love unconditionally, I can see that the Evangelical Christians view of God is a God who does really love unconditionally. I really like this Paragraph you wrote from one of your Posts here:

Personally, I could not deal with a relationship with a diety who was ready to condemn me for every fault I had. What did Christ minister and die for? I am evangelical because I like to spread the good news, that God loves us. I am excited about my faith. But I am not in the business of telling people they need to be like me. Hence, I am not fundie.

Hey Brackite,

I've come to realize that a lot of the labels we place upon ourselves as Christians, that define our worship styles can kind of blend together, so confusion is most definitely possible, and it does happen often. I once had the typical view of Evangelicals that defined my limited personal experience before and during my tenure as a Mormon. But it was not until I had left, and found more peace within myself, that I was able to view others as they are. I was really suprised to see Evangelicals who were better behaved than their fundamentalist Christian counterparts. I remember when my friend kept telling me I needed to come to the church I am now a frequent attender of (I haven't been able to go through the membership process yet). I was like "whatever" at first, especially towards more charismatic churches. But I was pleasantly surprised.

I want to cultivate my faith in a way that I can give more than a testimony when asked questions, and yet still be respectful of those who are not convinced by my words. My only beef is the assumption that all evangelicals are fundies. FUNDIES STINK!

Fundamentalism traverses all philosophical thought, as it is the belief that only YOUR path is the right one, or completely right one. This knocks a whole lot of animals off the ark who should be there, in my opinion.

[_Sam Harris]

I loved that movie too. If heaven is like that it will be a great place.

by the way, I believe in a God that loves unconditionally. As I noted in another thread, or maybe early in this one, it seems to me that the LDS Good, or the fundie God (GIMR, note the distinction please) expects us to be better towards our children that He might be to us. I have have some wandering kids. One just spent the past 6 weeks with us and now is heading back to a bad live in relationship. I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices. But I welcome the child with open arms and will always be there and allow her back even if she is making bad choices. Of course if she is in my home and riotous and mean spirited that may be different. But she is learning, perhaps the hard way, about life.

I think God put us here in thus crummy world because it is the place and the way for whatever reason, we can learn to develop god like character. Challenges can bring out the best in us. But they can break us. God knew we would screw up big time. I really hope he takes us all to Him in the end even the ones who maybe screwed up sinning all the way and works with us from there in the eternities. I cannot imagine ever casting out a child that at least is trying. I cannot imagine burning them forever, consigning to outer darkness or giving them the crumbs, as long as they are trying.

Bourne, I hope that your child will be in safe hands in the future, and that you and your spouse's minds may be eased by the spirit while she is wandering. Us females can be quite irrational at times. :-) I know that personally I gave my father hell while he was alive.

I think that people's view of God corresponds with how they view themselves. Or in other words, what they feel they deserve. You will worship a controlling, dominating God if you feel that this is what you need. You will worship a loving God if you feel that this is what you need. I need love, so I'm going to approach the Throne as if the person who sits on it is a God of love. I need understanding, and I need non-judgement. So I go before the Father as "naked" as I can be. People tell me all the time how little I care about what people think of me. Firstly, I grew up being disapproved of. I've tasted rejection plenty. I can't change who I am, and I no longer want to. I feel that I see myself the way God sees me, a beautiful, intelligent, capable being whom He has endowed with many talents. And when I'm on my best behavior (luck of the draw) I try to instill that in others.

I think a lot of the Old Testament with regards to "God's actions" in the negative sense are really the reflections of men, frightened at the large-looming world of their time. It's easier to summon up a big god who can beat other gods, than to face a person human to human. I'm not saying God isn't powerful, my existence to my 25th year attests that in my opinion He is, but I don't really see God as all that wrathful. Kushner's When Bad Things Happen To Good People is really helpful in this situation.

I guess I turned God into the parent I never had. Someone who would not abuse or abandon me, someone who would tuck me in at night and comfort me when scared, and call me beautiful. Someone who would validate the good things in me.

I have trouble understanding those who worship a legalistic God. But I think deep down under all that vitrol is a lot of fear.

[_Sam Harris]

Hey Roger,

I haven't overlooked you, it's just that I'm still at day job, and time is winding down. I have a few more things to do. I'll post to you this weekend.