One thing I have always had a problem with in Mormonism is the idea that after you are judged by God, you are relegated to a kingdom, be it Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, and that's it!
This earth life is our time to be "tried and tested", and there is no chance for further progression in the next life.
If you haven't minded all of your p's and q's....dotted all the i's...crossed all the t's....even if you were a faithful LDS servant, more than likely, you're going to the Terrestrial Kingdom because you aren't good enough to be a God in the Celestial Kingdom.
So....my kids get "judged", and they haven't made all of the mistakes I have...they go to the Celestial Kingdom and I'm "cut off" from them. Being sealed to them means nothing because I'm stuck in a lower kingdom. Oh, sure, it's nice and all, but I don't have the freedom to visit my kids. I have to wait for them to see me, when they're not too busy.
That sure sounds like hell to me.
I just don't see how a God who believes in eternal progression, constant learning, and compassion, can't allow for the fact that we might learn things beyond this existance and still be worthy for a greater glory.
Thoughts?
What's the deal with progressing through kingdoms?
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_truth dancer
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4792
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm
Liz... my dear friend,
None of this makes sense. :-) You are right!
Think of those in the CKHL who will not be with their family members who did not make it? What kind of heaven is it without one's loved ones?
What kind of God would create such a non-sensical plan where you get this one little shot (a bleep in, what a 30 billion year universe) and the rest of eternity is determined? I mean this is nonsense.
If you drink that cup of tea, well off you go for eternity? If you didn't wear the right underware well you are damned forever? If you gave your tithing to help your disabled parent in her final days, well good- bye forever.
Seriously, this is really nonsense. :-( The whole LDS version of heaven is one that baffles my mind. It just sounds so foreign to any sort of God who is decent, kind, loving, caring, etc.
If we look at this sort of God as an example, well we will be pretty horrific parents no? Give a child one chance and if she makes a mistake she must remain in their room for the rest of her life? Set up rules that are so odd and nonsensical and mean spirited and confusing that a child would not have a chance of getting them right... then punish said child for disobedience? Set up rules and then as a parent break them all and blame the child when he breaks the same rules. I mean, really.... :-(
Once one steps back and really looks at some of these teachings, you have to wonder about it all.
~dancer~
None of this makes sense. :-) You are right!
Think of those in the CKHL who will not be with their family members who did not make it? What kind of heaven is it without one's loved ones?
What kind of God would create such a non-sensical plan where you get this one little shot (a bleep in, what a 30 billion year universe) and the rest of eternity is determined? I mean this is nonsense.
If you drink that cup of tea, well off you go for eternity? If you didn't wear the right underware well you are damned forever? If you gave your tithing to help your disabled parent in her final days, well good- bye forever.
Seriously, this is really nonsense. :-( The whole LDS version of heaven is one that baffles my mind. It just sounds so foreign to any sort of God who is decent, kind, loving, caring, etc.
If we look at this sort of God as an example, well we will be pretty horrific parents no? Give a child one chance and if she makes a mistake she must remain in their room for the rest of her life? Set up rules that are so odd and nonsensical and mean spirited and confusing that a child would not have a chance of getting them right... then punish said child for disobedience? Set up rules and then as a parent break them all and blame the child when he breaks the same rules. I mean, really.... :-(
Once one steps back and really looks at some of these teachings, you have to wonder about it all.
~dancer~
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_Yoda
You and I seem to be on the same page in our feelings about this, Truth Dancer.
I posted this thread in the Celestial Forum as well...hoping to get some answers from TBM's who are a little squeamish about posting in this forum.
Some of the responses I have received are that "they are not sure that the no progress issue is still taught", and that there is progression available in between kingdoms.
Interesting insight, so far! ;)
I posted this thread in the Celestial Forum as well...hoping to get some answers from TBM's who are a little squeamish about posting in this forum.
Some of the responses I have received are that "they are not sure that the no progress issue is still taught", and that there is progression available in between kingdoms.
Interesting insight, so far! ;)
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_Polygamy Porter
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 am
Liz,
You are a wet exmormon.
Further, IF this earth is the test center, why did our dear loving father make us choose sides BEFORE going to the earthly testing center?
He sprang a pop quiz on us and those kids that FAILED that pre test were tossed out like yesterday's trash.
This god fellow is a real mean SOB.
Perhaps what you need to do is look at the history of the doctrine of three degrees of glory.
Lookup Emanuel Swedenborg and his 1784 book "Heaven and Hell", and like most of what smith copied and spouted off as original and divine, Swedenborg's book detailed "separate three heavens" described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars."
By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."
FURTHER, when smith "revealed(REGURGITATED)" the three degrees of glory, it was opposed by most members of his own church.
n D. Michael Quinn's excellent book "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," he gives a very fascinating source of Smith's "revelations." Quinn offers an exhaustive examination of the sources for the 1832 D&C Section 76 "Vision" of the "three degrees of glory."
In fact, Smith's description of the "Celestial Kingdom" was not only a copy from earlier written works, but also VERY controversial to the Latter-Day Saints.
The diaries of Orson Pratt and John Murdock from the 1830's record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 vision of heaven. The two men described countless excommunications of Mormons, including branch presidents, who denounced "the degrees of glory" as a "Satanic revelation." Even Brigham Young had a hard time with it at first and described it as "a trial to many."
Why were Mormons choking on this idea of three heavens?
Quinn explains that it's because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers of Smith's time.
Not only does Quinn make a strong case that Smith knew all about Swedenborg's ideas, but he also shows that his book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders" was a book in Smith's hometown library since 1817. Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents."
Stop being a chapel Mormon. Stop believing everything you were TOLD.
You are a wet exmormon.
Further, IF this earth is the test center, why did our dear loving father make us choose sides BEFORE going to the earthly testing center?
He sprang a pop quiz on us and those kids that FAILED that pre test were tossed out like yesterday's trash.
This god fellow is a real mean SOB.
Perhaps what you need to do is look at the history of the doctrine of three degrees of glory.
Lookup Emanuel Swedenborg and his 1784 book "Heaven and Hell", and like most of what smith copied and spouted off as original and divine, Swedenborg's book detailed "separate three heavens" described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars."
By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."
FURTHER, when smith "revealed(REGURGITATED)" the three degrees of glory, it was opposed by most members of his own church.
n D. Michael Quinn's excellent book "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," he gives a very fascinating source of Smith's "revelations." Quinn offers an exhaustive examination of the sources for the 1832 D&C Section 76 "Vision" of the "three degrees of glory."
In fact, Smith's description of the "Celestial Kingdom" was not only a copy from earlier written works, but also VERY controversial to the Latter-Day Saints.
The diaries of Orson Pratt and John Murdock from the 1830's record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 vision of heaven. The two men described countless excommunications of Mormons, including branch presidents, who denounced "the degrees of glory" as a "Satanic revelation." Even Brigham Young had a hard time with it at first and described it as "a trial to many."
Why were Mormons choking on this idea of three heavens?
Quinn explains that it's because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers of Smith's time.
Not only does Quinn make a strong case that Smith knew all about Swedenborg's ideas, but he also shows that his book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders" was a book in Smith's hometown library since 1817. Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents."
Stop being a chapel Mormon. Stop believing everything you were TOLD.
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_Yoda
Stop believing everything you were TOLD.
I hardly think that's what I'm doing, PP. If I was, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. ;)
Also, I don't know that you could label me as a "wet ex-Mormon". I'm still active LDS. A cafeteria Mormon, perhaps. LOL
I appreciate the information about the writings on the 3 degrees of glory. I had heard bits and pieces before, but didn't have the references to proceed. I will definitely do some reading.
Thanks, PP! :)
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_mentalgymnast
Re: What's the deal with progressing through kingdoms?
A good place to start if you're looking for various opinions/teachings on the topic is here:
http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2 ... ngdoms/52/
Regards,
MG
http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2 ... ngdoms/52/
Regards,
MG
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_Gazelam
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 5659
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am
It will be quite obvious to everyone at the time of the resurrection who will go where. The degree to which we allow the light of Christ and the sanctifying effect of the Holy Ghost in our lives effects not only our spirit but also our bodies.
You will go to where oyu will be happy. If you have spent your life aquainting yourself with the mind and will of the Lord, then we will enjoy his company, if we have spent our lives in the service of ourselves, being a law unto ourselves, then we will enjoy the company of those like us.
Gaz
You will go to where oyu will be happy. If you have spent your life aquainting yourself with the mind and will of the Lord, then we will enjoy his company, if we have spent our lives in the service of ourselves, being a law unto ourselves, then we will enjoy the company of those like us.
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato