Do you believe God intervenes & answers prayers?

[_Ray A]

What's truly ridiculous and dangerous are people that believe that god helps them find their car keys. But God didn't lift a finger to help 10M jews under Hitler, 50M russians under Stalin, or 5M cambodians under Pol Pot. We are more powerful than God, since we try to do something about the evil in this world.

What's even more ridiculous is that us "Westerners" ignore death and famine in the Third World daily. We watch it on TV and say, "poor buggers", "if only GOD will help them"!!! Blame God!! Do you think God is going to tie your shoelaces for you? If you don't have a job will God feed you? And if God "ran" everything we would never lose car keys. How would you teach your son or daughter what life is all about? By making sure they never stepped on dog S*** when they go for a walk? By making sure they were never bitten by a mosquito? By making sure their bank account never ducked under a million? Oh, life would be a piece of cake. We would never, ever, have to suffer any hardship. Have you read Helen Keller's story? Out of adversity comes refining and sweetness. This is GOD-given. We are here for a purpose, and that purpose is not to have God wipe our ass for us.

Naturally, I'm just a misguided soul who thinks we are more than flesh and neurons "guided" by purely material make up. We have as much meaning as a brick wall. Our thoughts and feelings are just ILLUSIONS of matter.

So do think about the Bombay amputee while you munch on a hamburger while watching the evening news. Apparently that's God's responsibility, not ours. He must clean up everything, not us. There is no agency, we have no choice, and we can excuse our imbibing by blaming God.

[_Ray A]

Here's some more:


* If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help.

* If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option.

* A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem.

Again, if God can cure cancer, why can't he cure Cerebral palsy, Parkinsons, Atrial Septal defects, Spina bifida, or Alzheimers?

http://www.johnofgod.com/

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, good to read You, Bro! I hope yer enjoying :-) my book... As i continue to ponder the PH material, i wonder pedagogically: "what was/is the 'lesson' objective?" What consideration IS given to the diversity of the mass that will be exposed to the material?

In all honesty, IMSCO, from my perspective, it should be withdrawn as a contaminate, as any ethical company re-calls a faulty product. Of course we have to ask, would company XYZ recall there best selling product if '3rd Party Research Inc.' had not made the negative discovery??? Maybe the dept that screens for porno and terrorist stuff, could be expanded to include church books.....????????

Ray, i'm sorry about the loss of your wife. Death is a challenging time of life, and leaves many gropping for answers that seem out of reach... I tend to agree with your conclusions re a "force, power etc" In all honesty when we look at our "Knowledge Pile" it is dwarfed by our "Ignorance Pile"... However, i'm totally optomistic that K-Pile is increasing. Which does not say the I-Pile is decreasing. It too may be expanding as we keep finding stuff to challenge us. The way it's meant to be. FANTASTIC!!!

fub, (welcome :-) you say:

There may be a guiding hand, but there certainly is no justification for prayer. Prayer seems to have no effect on events that can't be explained by statistics. It's kinda silly anyways to think that a all-knowing god doesn't know our thoughts or that he couldn't make his will manifest to us without it.

What's truly ridiculous and dangerous are people that believe that god helps them find their car keys. But God didn't lift a finger to help 10M jews under Hitler, 50M russians under Stalin, or 5M cambodians under Pol Pot. We are more powerful than God, since we try to do something about the evil in this world.

I think ONE of our 'problems' is the vocabulary we're stuck with. It contains many words that do not serve progression well. "Prayer" is one of them. It conjures up 'stuff' that tends to transform thinking to beseeching, believing and submission in classic poses of discouragement and subservience. Eyes closed, head hanging, hands clasped, or in LDSism arms folded, on knees... All to address a 'loving' "God"????

In my 'church'--another archaic word--which is in MY HEAD :-) i have come to understand there are things that work that i don't, as yet, understand! BUT, i take full advantage of them. One of those things is the power of CONCENTRATION. Another is FOCUS. ENERGY, both positive and negative, is ever present... FAITH is the least understood by the masses; that's why FEAR is the chief motivater of religious types. Most of this stuff Jesus spoke about, but they have been trumped by the 'guilt', 'fear', 'hell' and 'heaven' cards.....

Gotta run to serve in the kitchen of the "Lord!" :-) Warm regards... Roger

[_Ray A]

FAITH is the least understood by the masses; that's why FEAR is the chief motivater of religious types. Most of this stuff Jesus spoke about, but they have been trumped by the 'guilt', 'fear', 'hell' and 'heaven' cards.....

Gotta run to serve in the kitchen of the "Lord!" :-) Warm regards... Roger

I like that expression "religious types", Roger. I also like the phrase a lady once told me: "God is not 'religious' ".

[_fubecabr]

Gaz, good to read You, Bro! I hope yer enjoying :-) my book... As i continue to ponder the PH material, i wonder pedagogically: "what was/is the 'lesson' objective?" What consideration IS given to the diversity of the mass that will be exposed to the material?

In all honesty, IMSCO, from my perspective, it should be withdrawn as a contaminate, as any ethical company re-calls a faulty product. Of course we have to ask, would company XYZ recall there best selling product if '3rd Party Research Inc.' had not made the negative discovery??? Maybe the dept that screens for porno and terrorist stuff, could be expanded to include church books.....????????

Ray, i'm sorry about the loss of your wife. Death is a challenging time of life, and leaves many gropping for answers that seem out of reach... I tend to agree with your conclusions re a "force, power etc" In all honesty when we look at our "Knowledge Pile" it is dwarfed by our "Ignorance Pile"... However, i'm totally optomistic that K-Pile is increasing. Which does not say the I-Pile is decreasing. It too may be expanding as we keep finding stuff to challenge us. The way it's meant to be. FANTASTIC!!!

fub, (welcome :-) you say:

There may be a guiding hand, but there certainly is no justification for prayer. Prayer seems to have no effect on events that can't be explained by statistics. It's kinda silly anyways to think that a all-knowing god doesn't know our thoughts or that he couldn't make his will manifest to us without it.

What's truly ridiculous and dangerous are people that believe that god helps them find their car keys. But God didn't lift a finger to help 10M jews under Hitler, 50M russians under Stalin, or 5M cambodians under Pol Pot. We are more powerful than God, since we try to do something about the evil in this world.

I think ONE of our 'problems' is the vocabulary we're stuck with. It contains many words that do not serve progression well. "Prayer" is one of them. It conjures up 'stuff' that tends to transform thinking to beseeching, believing and submission in classic poses of discouragement and subservience. Eyes closed, head hanging, hands clasped, or in LDSism arms folded, on knees... All to address a 'loving' "God"????

In my 'church'--another archaic word--which is in MY HEAD :-) i have come to understand there are things that work that i don't, as yet, understand! BUT, i take full advantage of them. One of those things is the power of CONCENTRATION. Another is FOCUS. ENERGY, both positive and negative, is ever present... FAITH is the least understood by the masses; that's why FEAR is the chief motivater of religious types. Most of this stuff Jesus spoke about, but they have been trumped by the 'guilt', 'fear', 'hell' and 'heaven' cards.....

Gotta run to serve in the kitchen of the "Lord!" :-) Warm regards... Roger

Sounds like you attend the UU church.

[_fubecabr]

Here's some more:


* If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help.

* If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option.

* A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem.

Again, if God can cure cancer, why can't he cure Cerebral palsy, Parkinsons, Atrial Septal defects, Spina bifida, or Alzheimers?

http://www.johnofgod.com/

From wikipedia:

The Skeptical viewpoint

James Randi is convinced that João is a fraud of the worst kind, making money from other people's suffering.[7] He argues that no scientific evidence exists to back up claims of healing and that João performs sleight of hand and carnival tricks to convince people that they have been healed.[7] He also claims that João makes money from selling herbal remedies, 'merchandise' and donations.[7]

João tells people not to stop taking their medicine and says not everyone he serves will be cured.[3]

The Scientific evidence

Scientific evidence is sparse. In one study, thirty "operations" were followed, including six patients who were actually opened, and the extracted tissues were collected and submitted to exams. The report stated, "We were struck by the fact that the surgeon really incisions skin or ocular epithelium in addition to scraping the cornea without identified anaesthetics or antiseptics being used."[8] The report concluded that John of God's "operations" do not have "any specific effect".[8]

Money

Followers insist that João will take no money, but a concoction of herbs is always prescribed. The doses contain five bottles of pills each currently sold only at the Casa and have a price of 50 Brazilian Reais. There is also a small shop where people are encouraged to buy goods such as blessed water, crystals and books. Critics say João is the owner of a large cattle ranch near the town and of the mine the crystals come from. João claims that any income he receives is put into the running costs of The Casa (a rather large complex of buildings with manicured grounds) and the costs of visiting and distributing healing to the poor areas of Brazil. He also claims that until the devaluation of the Brazilian Real, he never accepted donations.

[_Ray A]

It's wise to look critically at everyone, including Randi: http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/ ... _Randi.htm

[_Jersey Girl]

I don't know if God intervenes or answers prayers, but someone or something does. Nothing empirical here. Just personal experience.

The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a fundamental aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of prayer has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.

Let's look at an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one day, and he tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic, and he schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease. Meanwhile, you are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God day and night for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your doctor examines you again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God for answering your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that God has worked a miracle in your life.

The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to know whether God is playing a role or not when we pray?

When your tumor disappeared, in other words, it might simply have been a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your prayer may have had zero effect.

How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that worked the cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there is no ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the prayer or not.

That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.

That doesn't seem like a comparable analogy to me. In the case of the amputee, you are asking God to replace a part that was removed and the site of the amputation is already healed. The leg isn't sick or diseased. It is partially or fully missing.

In the case of the cancerous tumor, you are asking God to dissolve or reabsorb something. You are asking God to make something "go away".

The more accurate analogy to the cancerous tumor would be if you asked God to remove your leg.

The more accurate analogy to the amputated leg would be if you asked God to put the cancer back.

Sorry, the analogy being used is totally flawed. It's simply an appeal to emotion and not the basis for a rational argument.




Jersey Girl

If God is all-powerful and all-loving and can heal cancer patients, why couldn't he restore someone's leg?

It's not a flawed analogy at all. It removes that ambiguity. I have a big scar on my arm that I've had since I was a kid. Why can't god remove the scar tissue and replace it with normal tissue?

Why is it that there is NO empirical evidence for God or the effectiveness of prayer? All "answered prayers" can be explained by statistics. If you have 10 people that have a certain form of cancer with a 90% mortality rate. Odds are that one person will survive. If that person prayed to God and then survives, then he/she proclaims that God answered the prayer. But you don't hear about the 9 others that died because God didn't answer their prayers.

The belief in prayer is a superstition. If there was a God and if he really did answer prayers, there would be empirical evidence for it.

I disagree with you. The analogy is flawed in that it attempts to make a comparison between healing a diseased body and replacing part of a healthy body that has healed from amputation. As I stated previously, it appeals to emotion more than reason. If that isn't the case, then why aren't we asking why God can't replace the foreskin of the circumcized penis?

Jersey Girl

[_Roger Morrison]

Ray, thanks. You quote a lady, "God is not religious." "YES!!" We are getting close to the truth! Praise "God"!! :-)

fub, not UU as a card carrier. However, have attended UU meetings/services in Canada & the USA and found them most engaging. I do subscribe to their credo: Humanitarian, Justice, Peace, Gender Equality, Universalism etc... Not being a ritualist, in general, lighting the chalice, and Ministerial robes, personally do little for me.

However, of the "churches" i've attended, i give them the highest mark for representing "Jesus-Christianism"...

Pasted below is an article from today's Sympatico home page. I think it represents Universalism in Science that is yet to be found in the Political/Social/Religious 'arenas'...

The discovery was part of the largest genome scan ever attempted in autism research. Called the Autism Genome Project, the initiative involved 137 researchers from 50 institiutions in nine countries, including Canada. (Bold added in emphasis)

Time will come when all of the above "arenas" will be attended to with the sense of human commonality as is now found in scientific research. That will come when Ego is replaced with Self-assurance. That will displace the need/compulsion to compete to bolster flagging Self-confidence. Inferioriy complexes are too often remedied by bullying and externalism.

It is said, "...love your neighbor as yourself..." Seems that's done unconsiously. Some do so in a caring and sharing generousity, a blessing to "neighbors". Others 'love' reluctantly, holding back affection and material that they fear will not be replaced; their "neighbors" little benefit.

Nor does the with-holding-neighbor. "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Another truism.

Unfortunately, our current state of humanity has been influenced, TO THIS POINT IN TIME, by Judeo-Christianism to a fear filled approach to life that puts me-first... Not all bad... But, when it's me-first-second-third-and-on-and-on-and...

IMSCO, it is this state of misunderstanding "God" and "Son" that this thread addresses. The fear of death, and pain, has made us susceptible to any and all who can, or will promise to, allieviate our fears and anxieties surrounding life's uncertainties. Religion has traditionally attempted to do so...

To some open-eyed, open-minded observers, it is obvious religion has not been very successful in their efforts. Had they been, the conditions Jesus addressed would not still be with us as they are today. Others can rationalize these away, as in the LDS PH lesson material, Gaz introduced, as part of "God's" plan... To each their own...

In this pursuit of "truth" and "the-way" i am far more optimistic than pessimistic. I see traditional establishment religion giving way to a new a humanitarian life emphasis. Leaving behind the old blood and death orientation that pandered fear and guilt introduced in the story of "The Fall".

The "life emphasis" is broadening from 'my life in Heaven' to "our" life, here-and-now! Humanity sustained without excesses, empathetically with ALL forms of life, then non will live in fear, or want of security. Neighbor to neighbor love will foster Peace and Goodwill... takes time and sensitivity... "Two New Commandments..." Warm regards, Roger

[_guy sajer]

While it isn't official doctrine, the Bible dictionary says this about prayer:

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

As to why God would not intervene to prevent the Holocaust, I don't think anyone has a satifactory answer. I just know that the wrong answer would be that God doesn't care (or doesn't exist).

And you know that how . . . ?