Welcome question for Shirts: Where is the stone box?

[_christopher]

The Backyard Professor has made a very good observation, reminds me of the old addage. "Those who know need no further explanation, those who don't no explanation is possible". That is so eternally true.

But that is not true here with Kerry and doesn't apply to this example. He can keep saying it has been answered until the cows come home, but he is wrong. It hasn't been answered. Three different stories by interested parties and no evidence is not an an answer for most looking for something.

Also, your statement that "no explanation is possible" is pure garbage. Most here, I included, lived it, loved it and even after beginning to study the problems wanted it to be true. I would love to go back to the life I had. Convoluted plausibilites with multiple contradictions (take the issue above for example) do not equal an explanation.


Chris <><

[Anonymous]

Well its a well known addage I can only suggest you take that up with its author.

If you consider Mormonism and its miraculous claims and history, and mysteries like a massive underground cave, with thousands of complex cavernous tunnels some linking others apparently not, with all variety of tunnels some having many twists and turns, in some places parts of tunnels become very narrow inorder to get through the cave you have to literally strip down take off all your gear squeeze through on your belly, other caves have huge seemingly impassable chasms. Others run along for hundreds of miles with straight wide open areas and uneventful terrain. While others twist and turn in aparent random choas and serpentine complexity. No one single man, spulunking cave explorer has explored the whole thing many have tried and come close, but the juggernautic complexity of the cave system is too big to explore even in one life time.

However some people have made it their lives to explore as much of the mystery of the cave as possible where others have stopped exploring. While others have believed the cave ends, or have come accross a chasm or have just believed they have thoroughly explored the cave and there is nothing more to learn of its mystery, not knowing if they had just cleared away a little more rubble the cave reaches the surface. Some of the greatest cave explorers leave there mark occasionally on the wall as a sign to other weary travelers deep in the bowels of the earth, that if they think they are alone and the first man to venture that deep to rest assured another human being has been there before them they are not the first. Some lay but dedicated cave explorer is amazed after spending years and years in the cave, and been traveling for miles and miles believing he is learning and going where no other mortal has ever ventured all of a sudden the mark of another legendary gave explorer is found clearly marked on a rock where he had began to believe no one else had been there before him.

The problem I find with statements like yours is the greatest of the cave explores (LDS historians) of which greats there are only a handful who have searched deeper into the riddles and gone farther than all the ametures, and have more thoroughly examined the intricies, than pretty much every one else. And are still believers and active Mormons, I can only guess this thought must enter into the mind of the individual who thinks its all a sham, hang on sec they know all I know and infinitely more and they are sticking around and still exploring what do they know I don't? That said something like this topic of witnesses accounts and the book Mormon, I find it hard to pursue it with any vigor because I already know its true, so I find it hard to gain any enthusiam to research it all up. You think you get to the bottum of it but there is always more when it comes to Mormonism, no one has plumbed it fully yet people hazard the guess it leads nowhere.

[_Bond...James Bond]

The Backyard Professor has made a very good observation, reminds me of the old addage. "Those who know need no further explanation, those who don't no explanation is possible". That is so eternally true.

"
You don't "know" anything is true concerning Mormonism. You "believe" Mormonism is true. It's a great way to avoid personally thinking about unanswerable questions, but you're not going to win any arguments waving the faith flag. Show us the box, not a testimony.

[_Runtu]

Well its a well known addage I can only suggest you take that up with its author.

If you consider Mormonism and its miraculous claims and history, and mysteries like a massive underground cave, with thousands of complex cavernous tunnels some linking others apparently not, with all variety of tunnels some having many twists and turns, in some places parts of tunnels become very narrow inorder to get through the cave you have to literally strip down take off all your gear squeeze through on your belly, other caves have huge seemingly impassable chasms. Others run along for hundreds of miles with straight wide open areas and uneventful terrain. While others twist and turn in aparent random choas and serpentine complexity. No one single man, spulunking cave explorer has explored the whole thing many have tried and come close, but the juggernautic complexity of the cave system is too big to explore even in one life time.

However some people have made it their lives to explore as much of the mystery of the cave as possible where others have stopped exploring. While others have believed the cave ends, or have come accross a chasm or have just believed they have thoroughly explored the cave and there is nothing more to learn of its mystery, not knowing if they had just cleared away a little more rubble the cave reaches the surface. Some of the greatest cave explorers leave there mark occasionally on the wall as a sign to other weary travelers deep in the bowels of the earth, that if they think they are alone and the first man to venture that deep to rest assured another human being has been there before them they are not the first. Some lay but dedicated cave explorer is amazed after spending years and years in the cave, and been traveling for miles and miles believing he is learning and going where no other mortal has ever ventured all of a sudden the mark of another legendary gave explorer is found clearly marked on a rock where he had began to believe no one else had been there before him.

The problem I find with statements like yours is the greatest of the cave explores (LDS historians) of which greats there are only a handful who have searched deeper into the riddles and gone farther than all the ametures, and have more thoroughly examined the intricies, than pretty much every one else. And are still believers and active Mormons, I can only guess this thought must enter into the mind of the individual who thinks its all a sham, hang on sec they know all I know and infinitely more and they are sticking around and still exploring what do they know I don't? That said something like this topic of witnesses accounts and the book Mormon, I find it hard to pursue it with any vigor because I already know its true, so I find it hard to gain any enthusiam to research it all up. You think you get to the bottum of it but there is always more when it comes to Mormonism, no one has plumbed it fully yet people hazard the guess it leads nowhere.

My brother-in-law once said that the more you investigate the truth, the more beautiful and true it becomes. Conversely, the more you investigate a lie, the uglier and more deceptive it becomes. I am not through exploring Mormonism (or I wouldn't be here), but I am finding that he was right.

[_Baurak Ale]

Mormonism like the existence of God can't be proved or disproved. Whether God exists is completely 50-50% likewise whether Mormonism is true. According to the webster dictionary an athiest is "one who believes that there is no deity" An athiest doesn't know he believes he can't actually factually know only believe.

I agree with you in my opinion a large majority of Mormons who say they "KNOW" when in reality in my opinion they probably only believe. I actually know Mormonism is true because I have personally actually had experiences like Joseph Smith, I have actually experienced glorious heavenly epiphanies and angels like Joseph Smith, first hand and with others. However I do not believe there is any way in the universe to verify that fact or prove it, it is simply and utterly impossible can't be done. As far as I understand Mormon doctrine teaches that part of the plan of salvation and the whole point of it from the outset was that man would have to walk by faith, the whole point being that nothing could ever be definitively proven that was the whole point of the experiment of earth life. If you could prove it and it was factual, the probationary test would fly out the window. In my opinion attempting to disprove Mormonism is in a way as foolish as trying to prove it, neither can be done.

[_Runtu]

Mormonism like the existence of God can't be proved or disproved. Whether God exists is completely 50-50% likewise whether Mormonism is true. According to the webster dictionary an athiest is "one who believes that there is no deity" An athiest doesn't know he believes he can't actually factually know only believe.

I agree with you in my opinion a large majority of Mormons who say they "KNOW" when in reality in my opinion they probably only believe. I actually know Mormonism is true because I have personally actually had experiences like Joseph Smith, I have actually experienced glorious heavenly epiphanies and angels like Joseph Smith, first hand and with others. However I do not believe there is any way in the universe to verify that fact or prove it, it is simply and utterly impossible can't be done. As far as I understand Mormon doctrine teaches that part of the plan of salvation and the whole point of it from the outset was that man would have to walk by faith, the whole point being that nothing could ever be definitively proven that was the whole point of the experiment of earth life. If you could prove it and it was factual, the probationary test would fly out the window. In my opinion attempting to disprove Mormonism is in a way as foolish as trying to prove it, neither can be done.

Of course it can't disproven. The only people I know who think it can be are a few overzealous critics (usually EVs). My experience tells me that it is highly likely to be untrue and that it doesn't work very well in my life. But that could change.

[_KerryAShirts]

Serious question. *IF* you saw the box, handled it yourself, KNEW it was THE box the plates were in, would you join Mormonism? I mean it, would you? I for one would totally ridicule you for doing such a *STUPID* thing for such an unbelievably ***STOOOOPID**** reason. And I bet money on it that every single one of you knows why. So then, why are you making such a big deal about something you know damn good and well will STILL mean absolutely nothing to you? Would you then be so utterly stupid to claim this PROVES Joesph a prophet and join? I would be the ***VERY FIRST*** to proclaim you lowered your IQ's by 100 points, and are insane.

I am dead serious. I have asked if the plates LITERALLY were here, would you join the church and proclaim Joseph a TRUE prophet? I have been told no, don't be stupid Shirts. And stupid it is. So what's the point? The plates would not convince anyone that Nephites nor Lamanites, NOR Jaredites with their shining stones existed and wrote on them. I know none of you here would all the sudden believe in them. So WHAT'S YOUR POINT ABOUT HAVING THEM? I am serious. You LIE if you say they would convince you. I wasn't born yesterday.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Serious question. *IF* you saw the box, handled it yourself, KNEW it was THE box the plates were in, would you join Mormonism? I mean it, would you? I for one would totally ridicule you for doing such a *STUPID* thing for such an unbelievably ***STOOOOPID**** reason. And I bet money on it that every single one of you knows why. So then, why are you making such a big deal about something you know damn good and well will STILL mean absolutely nothing to you? Would you then be so utterly stupid to claim this PROVES Joesph a prophet and join? I would be the ***VERY FIRST*** to proclaim you lowered your IQ's by 100 points, and are insane.

I am dead serious. I have asked if the plates LITERALLY were here, would you join the church and proclaim Joseph a TRUE prophet? I have been told no, don't be stupid Shirts. And stupid it is. So what's the point? The plates would not convince anyone that Nephites nor Lamanites, NOR Jaredites with their shining stones existed and wrote on them. I know none of you here would all the sudden believe in them. So WHAT'S YOUR POINT ABOUT HAVING THEM? I am serious. You LIE if you say they would convince you. I wasn't born yesterday.

What is your point?

You really are a backassyard professor ins'tcha?

Think about it.

IF you had the stone box, SCIENTISTS would be very interested in it.

Further IF you had the magical golden plates, SCIENTISTS would fall over each other to examine them.

So to answer your question, If SCIENTISTS verified smiths translation, then would that be evidence that such a race of people existed and did write such things? Yes, I would put my garments back on, hell, I'd go buy seven of the old school one piece Jesus jammie jumpsuits, one for each day of the week! I would even refrain from staining them with skid marks :)

HOWEVER, didn't we already go through such an exercise back in 1967, then recently with the DNA. Neither of which proved anything positive for LDS Inc?


LDS Inc claims the stone box and plates existed. The plates magically disappeared, the stone box did not.

The burden is on LDS Inc to show proof that either did exist.

How can I prove that something did not exist?

[_Mephitus]

I would be right behind you PP. If the claims of Mormonism where shown true in ANY area, scientists of every field would be slitting necks for a chance to study such extrodinary new evidence of what happened here in america. It would be of the greatest discoveries of american history! But as it is, science has shown the opposite time after time. And so here we sit arguing semantics of "well this profit meant this" or the like. Either put up the verifyable evidence that confirms a major point within Mormon theology, or STFU!

[_Mercury]

Serious question. *IF* you saw the box, handled it yourself, KNEW it was THE box the plates were in, would you join Mormonism? I mean it, would you? I for one would totally ridicule you for doing such a *STUPID* thing for such an unbelievably ***STOOOOPID**** reason. And I bet money on it that every single one of you knows why. So then, why are you making such a big deal about something you know damn good and well will STILL mean absolutely nothing to you? Would you then be so utterly stupid to claim this PROVES Joesph a prophet and join? I would be the ***VERY FIRST*** to proclaim you lowered your IQ's by 100 points, and are insane.

I am dead serious. I have asked if the plates LITERALLY were here, would you join the church and proclaim Joseph a TRUE prophet? I have been told no, don't be stupid Shirts. And stupid it is. So what's the point? The plates would not convince anyone that Nephites nor Lamanites, NOR Jaredites with their shining stones existed and wrote on them. I know none of you here would all the sudden believe in them. So WHAT'S YOUR POINT ABOUT HAVING THEM? I am serious. You LIE if you say they would convince you. I wasn't born yesterday.

This comment proves that your an ass.

edit: not only an ass but an ignorant ass.