DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Dan, the fact that Mormon leaders were able to keep secrets such as polygamy is evidence. It’s evidence that secret were able to be kept and therefore it’s not unreasonable to carry the reasoning further based on that evidence and assume the possibility that other secrets which may not be fully appreciated were kept.


Once again because you are not familiar with the history you make an error. Polygamy was not kept a secret well at all. The cat was out of the bag pretty early even before Smith was murdered. Some of the leaders who became disaffected because of it, publicized it abroad. William Law tops that list.


Wasn't the good doctor (Johnson?) one of the earliest to let the cat out of the bag? Which precipitated the lie in the newspaper and from the pulpit, if I'm remembering right. Emma must have been intentionally blind and deaf, to not know what was going on right under her nose.
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

harmony wrote:
Emma must have been intentionally blind and deaf, to not know what was going on right under her nose.



Whatever the explanation for her testimony might be, here is what I was taught in RLDS Sunday School:

1. The RLDS Church is the one true church, because Emma said the Smith men at Nauvoo were not polygamists.

2. The Book of Mormon is true, because Emma told us how her husband translated it from golden plates.

When I would ask how we could know Emma was both correct and truthful on either of these points, my teacher,
(or the presiding elder, or the Branch President, or somebody) would bear their testimony and say that they knew
Emma was honest by their "witness of the spirit." Then they would quote Patriarch William Smith, or John E. Page,
or some other worthy, in order to back up Emma's testimony.

When I would ask the Mormons about this, they would tell me that Emma was a liar on point #1, but was as
honest as the day is long regarding point #2.

When I would ask Sandra Tanner about this, she would tell me that Emma was a liar on point #1 and certain
aspects of point #2, but that we could trust her testimony supportive of there being no conspiracy to compile
and bring forth the Book of Mormon.

And when I would ask James Wardle, my mentor in my earlier Reorganite days, he would say "Don't trust what
Emma said about anything --- but believe that it all worked out for the best, and the LDS are not the true church."

Will the REAL Emma Hale Smith please stand up?

Uncle Dale
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Good grief.

O, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!


or even....

An enigma, wrapped up in a puzzle, wrapped up in a conundrum

You're a brave man Dale...
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Miss Taken wrote:Good grief.

O, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!




Indeed !-- but it is this sort of thing that makes life interesting -- and an interesting life has purpose and value.

We might spend years trying to unravel the origin and development of the Branch Davidians, or Theosophy,
or whatever other sect or cult once drew a following. They all had their secrets.

But the Mormons have become "a mighty people in the Rocky Mountains" and elsewhere. The challenge of their
origins enigma is a particularly difficult one for anybody to fathom. No wonder that so many throw their hands
up into the air (in total frustration, or in saintly praise) and simply believe Joseph Smith, Jr.

That was what he was all about -- making people believe in him. He deserves a character part in Herman
Melville's The Confidence Man, (rather than its William Smith surrogate, the Mormon sister, and the
fellow selling phoney land titles for Cutlerite Clithero).

Interestingly enough, Brother Joseph continues to work his magic upon the minds of even ex-Mormons and
anti-Mormons. He even has modern "disciples" who essentially despise him ---- what a legacy!

Uncle Dale
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Unk,

If you will provide transcripts of the page in question from the 1830 Book of Mormon and the page in question from the MS Story, I believe I can compile a spreadsheet of some sort that encompasses both parallels and "unparallels". Maybe then we can discuss, with some input from Brent, some methodologically-sound ways of number-crunching this data to determine its approximate significance.

-CK
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Unk,

If you will provide transcripts of the page in question from the 1830 Book of Mormon and the page in question from the MS Story, I believe I can compile a spreadsheet of some sort that encompasses both parallels and "unparallels". Maybe then we can discuss, with some input from Brent, some methodologically-sound ways of number-crunching this data to determine its approximate significance.
-CK



Vernal Holley wrote a sentence-by-sentence comparison of the battle tactics recorded in the 1910 LDS edition
of the Oberlin story, pp. 36-39 and the LDS Book of Mormon's Alma 43:25-44:20, but he never used that material
in his Book of Mormon Authorship volume. Ted Chandler either happened upon this set of similarities on his
own accord, or else he also saw Vernal's paper. Ted's brief remarks may be found half-way down this web-page:
http://www.mormonstudies.com/author3.htm

Ted does not go into the same amount of comparisons detail that Vernal developed in his paper -- where Vern
cited numerous passages, brought in from various, wide-distributed parts of the two source text, to further
elucidate his discussion of the battle tactics in both stories. Since I do not have the time right now to re-construct
all of Vernal's written and graphic illustrations, you'll have to do that sort of thing for yourself.

I have on-line some possibly helpful resources you can consult, however --

For the 1910 Spalding, 36-39, go here for the basic text:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/ms.htm

Go here to see a number of underlined story parallels with the Book of Mormon:
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/lds1910k.htm

And go here for a semi-complete color mark-up of the corrected Spalding manuscript text:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/ColorSMS.htm#chap08

For the LDS Book of Mormon, Alma 43 and 44, etc., see several copies on the web

For underlined story parallels with Spalding, see these scans:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/SRPpap16.htm#Alma

For my own color-coded pages from that section, in the 1830 Book of Mormon, begin here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol0.htm#342a

For thematic and word-string paralles in the 1830 Book of Mormon, cross-referenced with Spalding, go here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol4.htm#342
and here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol3.htm

The main complication being that both Spalding and the latter half of the Book fo Alma record
several different episodes of bizzare battle tactics, not all of which have the hill and river spoken
of by Holley and Chandler --- so you'll have to dig a little in both texts to locate the supplemental
battle scenes, troop movements, sets of phraseology parallels, etc.

I plan to do some of this searching, matching and compilation work in the next week, if I can find
enough free time. You could jump-start that study, by gathering together a list of the significant
thematic, phraseology and vocabulary parallels from each source.

I'm not sure what the best format for reporting this material might be. Critics say that my own articulations
of such stuff are hard to follow and comprehend. Chandler's minimalist descriptive reporting style might
be the best choice. I'll leave it all up to you. It will be at least a week before I can break away from some
important family matters, to devote much time to this kind of labor-intensive computerized study.

Cheers,
UD
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Well, I was trying to do this using textalyser.net and Microsoft Excel, but it got to be too big a job. I think Textquest.de might be able to do it more neatly, but it's a complicated program and I haven't really got time to figure it out. Maybe I'll leave the data-crunching to your friends in California. Their results will be more methodologically sound anyway, I'm sure.
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Brent Metcalfe wrote:
Good grief, Dale; the fact that Joseph Smith did not write KJV Isaiah is one of the two very
controls that I’ve alluded to for testing whether Smith alone was responsible for the
“therefore”/”wherefore” lexical shift. *sigh*



Don't think that I am trying to be difficult here for no purpose, Brent. I know quite well what you said in your
paper (or, rather your chapter, in the form I have it). It is your attempt to make that material relevant to the
topic at hand that now interests me; and not the several details of your research and reporting.

If you wish to show exactly how those details relate to this discussion, that might prove interesting for all of
us reading your remarks in this thread. But since you do not seem ready to do much of that yourself, I'll here
attempt to make one of your critics speak in your behalf:

FARMS wrote:"Metcalfe believes that 'occurrences of ‘therefore’ and ‘wherefore’ in Book of Mormon passages
deriving from the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) elucidate the interplay between narrative
created by Smith and narrative dependent on external sources' (p. 411). To illustrate, he notes that
Joseph Smith “tends to retain [or] delete, but not alter the term ‘therefore’ or ‘wherefore’ in a biblical
source he is copying,” even if it is not the one he is currently using in the adjacent text, while favoring
his own term whenever embellishing the biblical source. While this indicates to Metcalfe that Joseph Smith
was simply taking Bible passages and building the story of the Book of Mormon around them, it need
not be so. It is just as likely that he employed the KJV reading of Bible quotes in the Nephite record..."
(John A. Tvedtnes' review)



Notice the a priori deductive reasoning by which you begin that statement, and by which your
critic continues the idea: "Joseph Smith 'tends to retain [or] delete...' in a biblical source he is copying."

In other words both you and Tvedtnes simply assume that the textual oddities pointed out in the Book of Mormon come
via the editorial and creative hand of Joseph Smith, Jr.

To my way of thinking, this is a poor way to begin an assertion of this magnitude of importance.

But, back to my earlier qustion -- as to whether Smith wrote Isaiah?

Of course he did not -- and for me, at least, that makes the Book of Mormon a composite text. You, however, appear to
be very reluctant to make that admission: you just direct us all back to your article, as though it were an alabaster
keystone, inset above the entrance to the Court of the Gentiles, with an imperial decree set in golden letters. So
of course, people like myself are not going to let such a directive stand, without further elucidation.

But I think I fathom your intent, in pointing to the biblical material copied over into the Book of Mormon (by whomever),
but without identifying the results as comprising a composite text. For, were you to come right out and admit
that fact, in doing so you would naturally leave open the probability that where a composite text incorporates
pre-existing biblical material, it will also incorporate pre-existing material from other sources.

The further you hold open that possibility, the more likely it will be that something like a Solomon Spalding
fragment (or more) found its way into the Book of Mormon.

And, by operating under the a priori assumption that Smith (and Smith alone) was the one who plagiarized
the KJV Bible, you can continue to give the impression that the biblical borrowings are merely a sort of added
"seasoning" for Smith's literary soup -- and not really blatant indicators of a composite text.

I find it telling that you are perfectly ready, willing and able to leap upon some insignificant small detail in my
charting out of Spalding textual affinities, but that you allow my biblical borrowing assertions to fly by
with a passing grade.

Let us take a quick look back at my 1980 JWHA paper and the biblical text borrowings I charted out there:

Image
Figure III: Distribution of Book of Mormon Texts Typical of the Old Testament

Image
Figure IV: Distribution of Book of Mormon Texts Typical of the New Testament

Now there are two charts to which you might have directed your critical attention -- and in the process pointed
out to me the several errors I made in my graphic over-generalizations, by which several Old Testament borrowings are
left out of the chart, and by which some purported New Testament borrowings might be shown to be simply the author's
mimicry of Elizabethan English, etc.

But, like Lester E. Bush and Wayne Ham before you, it appears that you have no bones to pick with this sort of
stuff. I presume that it does not bother you, because it leaves your a priori deductive reasoning largely
unassailed and unharmed.

So, you instead have directed your attention to what you presume were the data that went into making up my
other chart in that series:

Image
Figure II: Distribution of Book of Mormon Texts Resembling Spalding's Writings

Fine and dandy -- this is stuff I'd rather talk about anyway, Brent.

But why do you not come right out and say what it is that bothers you about my presentation of this material?
All your talk about the signifigance of "more part" has nothing to do with this Spalding stuff. And when I credit
the "more history part" of Alma to Spalding's pen, you really need to come up with some better response than
to tell me and others to read you paper --- where Solomon Spalding is mentioned zero times and Rigdon's name
pops up only once.

In 1956 my grandmother slipped and fell upon a department store in Idaho, was badly injured, and brought a
suit in court against the store. The store chain lawyers offered her several thousand dollars to drop the suit,
and gave her papers to sign to that effect. When she tried to collect the money promised her, those same lawyers
pointed out that she had dated her signature "1958" instead of "1956," which made the agreement null and void.
She threatened to go back into court, and they handed her some purchase vouchers to shut her up. She shut up.

I see your reference to the "more part" oddity in the text as exactly the same sort of thing as the lawyers were
trying to pull in my grandmother's situation. By the time they had finished with her, a typographical oddity in a
settlement agreement was made so seemingly large as to effectively blot out the fact of her documented injuries.
And, with your argument, Brent, a "more part" oddity is made so seemingly large, as to block out the readers'
view of Spaldingish language in certain parts of the Book of Mormon.

Greater things than my amateurish drawings are in the wind, Brent. Take care that you do not commit your
scholarly reputation so strongly to a "Smith-alone" position that you will not be able to bend in that coming wind.

With respectful regards,
Dale R. Broadhurst
Last edited by Bedlamite on Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Well, I was trying to do this using textalyser.net and Microsoft Excel, but it got to be too big a job. I think Textquest.de might be able to do it more neatly, but it's a complicated program and I haven't really got time to figure it out. Maybe I'll leave the data-crunching to your friends in California. Their results will be more methodologically sound anyway, I'm sure.



They have just now advanced to the "associative" stage of the study -- by which textual markers indicative of
certain author's "voices" can be mapped against any sub-set of textual data (such as word-strings, word order,
lack of certain vocabulary, etc.).

Thus, if it were suspected that most occurrences of "but behold!" in the Book of Mormon text are attributable to the "voice"
of Joseph Smith, Jr., computerized testing can be performed to chart out the actual correlation of his word-print,
against the occurrence of "but behold," (and thousands of other potential textual items as well). In such a
computerized testing/locating process, the results might show that "but behold" occurrences correlate with
Joseph Smith word-prints 96% of the time, and that of all other similar textual correlations, the "but behold"
example is third on the numerical count tabulation, and tenth on the list of highest correlations.

If other "voices" besides that of Smith can be demonstrated as occurring within the Book of Mormon text, then the locations
and nature of their input may help us to determine sources, redactions, chronology, etc.

None of which will directly help us to explain in simple terms how Spalding's battle themes and language do or
do not correspond to the battle themes and language in the latter part of Alma.

Of course it would be reassuring if we could have those computer geeks' data dumps in our laps when we try
and talk about such textual parallels -- but I think that will be a couple of years in arriving. In the meanwhile
we might attempt something less impressive in the way of reporting, which need not rely upon our having access
to an exhaustive database of supporting evidence.

Not all of this will come from the Golden State, however. I was trying to warn Brent of what will be coming, but
I doubt I'll make much of an impression upon his solidified conclusions.

Anything you can contribute, over and above the tiny bit of reporting so far offered at Ted Chandler's site, will
be very helpful -- if only your rough notes on obviously interesting storyline similarities, etc.

In the meanwhile, I will plod away on my own contribution. It will be introduced at my website, here:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/Bo ... tm#story01

But I will no doubt have to create a couple of dedicated web-pages for the topic, later on.

Cheers,
UD
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Dale,

But, back to my earlier qustion -- as to whether Smith wrote Isaiah?

Of course he did not -- and for me, at least, that makes the Book of Mormon a composite text. You, however, appear to
be very reluctant to make that admission: you just direct us all back to your article, as though it were an alabaster
keystone, inset above the entrance to the Court of the Gentiles, with an imperial decree set in golden letters. So
of course, people like myself are not going to let such a directive stand, without further elucidation.

But I think I fathom your intent, in pointing to the biblical material copied over into the Book of Mormon (by whomever),
but without identifying the results as comprising a composite text. For, were you to come right out and admit
that fact, in doing so you would naturally leave open the probability that where a composite text incorporates
pre-existing biblical material, it will also incorporate pre-existing material from other sources.

The further you hold open that possibility, the more likely it will be that something like a Solomon Spalding
fragment (or more) found its way into the Book of Mormon.

And, by operating under the a priori assumption that Smith (and Smith alone) was the one who plagiarized
the KJV Bible, you can continue to give the impression that the biblical borrowings are merely a sort of added
"seasoning" for Smith's literary soup -- and not really blatant indicators of a composite text.

I find it telling that you are perfectly ready, willing and able to leap upon some insignificant small detail in my
charting out of Spalding textual affinities, but that you allow my biblical borrowing assertions to fly by
with a passing grade.


It is fallacious to argue that if Joseph Smith could introduce the Bible into his book, he could have also introduced a Spalding-Rigdon MS. No one denies the Book of Mormon doesn't liberally borrow from the KJV. However, the Book of Mormon will not become a Spalding-Rigdon-Smith composite text until you demonstrate that it is, and that you haven't done yet. All you have done is graph and chart your assertions and conclusions, but you need to convince us that your methodology is sound. Frankly, what I have seen is leaves me scratching my head in disbelief that you actually believe you are saying something significant. Tell me why I should be impressed with your evidence?

But why do you not come right out and say what it is that bothers you about my presentation of this material?
All your talk about the signifigance of "more part" has nothing to do with this Spalding stuff. And when I credit
the "more history part" of Alma to Spalding's pen, you really need to come up with some better response than
to tell me and others to read you paper --- where Solomon Spalding is mentioned zero times and Rigdon's name
pops up only once.

In 1956 my grandmother slipped and fell upon a department store in Idaho, was badly injured, and brought a
suit in court against the store. The store chain lawyers offered her several thousand dollars to drop the suit,
and gave her papers to sign to that effect. When she tried to collect the money promised her, those same lawyers
pointed out that she had dated her signature "1958" instead of "1956," which made the agreement null and void.
She threatened to go back into court, and they handed her some purchase vouchers to shut her up. She shut up.

I see your reference to the "more part" oddity in the text as exactly the same sort of thing as the lawyers were
trying to pull in my grandmother's situation. By the time they had finished with her, a typographical oddity in a
settlement agreement was made so seemingly large as to effectively blot out the fact of her documented injuries.
And, with your argument, Brent, a "more part" oddity is made so seemingly large, as to block out the readers'
view of Spaldingish language in certain parts of the Book of Mormon.

Greater things than my amateurish drawings are in the wind, Brent. Take care that you do not commit your
scholarly reputation so strongly to a "Smith-alone" position that you will not be able to bend in that coming wind.


Instead of accusing Brent of some underhanded thing or threatening him, why don't you tell us why your method of counting words and breaking up phrases into smaller parts to get what you want is supposed to be compelling evidence. I don't get it!

Instead of given CK links and sending him off to make sense of your data, I would like to see you give us a step-by-step account of how you arrived at the conclusions depicted on your charts. Is that too much to ask?

If Spalding's vocabulary and language shows up as you claim, then why not actual plagiarism? Even if one assumes Spalding rewrote or "reworked" his Roman Manuscript Story into a Hebrew Manuscript Found (which I don't), I would expect much of the same sentences and paragraphs would be carried over into the Book of Mormon, which would make your very strained and diffused search for similar language unnecessary.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
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