Welcome question for Shirts: Where is the stone box?

Post by **_Polygamy Porter** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:41 pm

Baurak Ale wrote:For those who joined later there is a first hand eye witness account of David Whitmer, that reports seeing the stone box casket first hand. 1875 I think.

And we all know how credible he was...

Post by **_Baurak Ale** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:40 am

Joseph Smith a simple con man, I do not think that is possible. A self deluded individual would be a possible model to use but a simple con man I don't think so. The excruciating trials and tribulations that Joseph Smith faced, I do not think a simple con man would have the fortitude to endure, in my opinion a con man would've bailed very early on in the piece. Joseph Smith had the absolute crap kicked out of him on so many occasions I would have to say in my opinion he clearly believed all his religious experiences and convictions. At the end of his life, he had a receeding hair line from poisen once administered, broken tooth from where a glass bottle of poisen was forced into his mouth. He walked with a limp from the surgery where a chunk of bone had been cut out of his leg in his childhood while he was fully concious. And he suffered from a bad back from when he recieved back sprains he had never recovered from where strong men in mobs had laid him out.

I would suggest a more possible hypothesis would be relgio/mental illness of some delusional kind. Rather than a simple con man. If Joseph Smith was a con man for the purpose of gaining power and wealth with men, I would suggest he was never wealthy and at the culmination of his life what he had suffered would not of been worth even the biggest die hard con mans trouble. Even if one attempts to explain away Mormonism by Joseph Smith being a con man, or suffering from some religo/delirium of some kind. That is even if the premise Mormonism is based on is completely false, and its founder was a delusional religious maniac of some nature, whether one likes it or not that is just as completely fascinating perhaps more so than if it was true.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:50 am

Baurak Ale wrote:Joseph Smith a simple con man, I do not think that is possible.

Me either. If he qualifies as anything it's as a brilliant con man. He's still conning people today.

A self deluded individual would be a possible model to use but a simple con man I don't think so.

Still not the best paradigm for a prophet.

The excruciating trials and tribulations that Joseph Smith faced, I do not think a simple con man would have the fortitude to endure, in my opinion a con man would've bailed very early on in the piece. Joseph Smith had the absolute crap kicked out of him on so many occasions I would have to say in my opinion he clearly believed all his religious experiences and convictions. At the end of his life, he had a receeding hair line from poisen once administered, broken tooth from where a glass bottle of poisen was forced into his mouth. He walked with a limp from the surgery where a chunk of bone had been cut out of his leg in his childhood while he was fully concious. And he suffered from a bad back from when he recieved back sprains he had never recovered from where strong men in mobs had laid him out.

Didn't he bring alot of the crap on himself?

I would suggest a more possible hypothesis would be relgio/mental illness of some delusional kind.

So you're suggesting Joseph Smith had a mental illness and was delusional? I'm really starting to like you.

Rather than a simple con man. If Joseph Smith was a con man for the purpose of gaining power and wealth with men, I would suggest he was never wealthy and at the culmination of his life what he had suffered would not of been worth even the biggest die hard con mans trouble.

I don't think he planned on dying as young as he did. If he'd lived another 30 years he might have gotten around to aquiring some wealth.

Even if one attempts to explain away Mormonism by Joseph Smith being a con man, or suffering from some religo/delirium of some kind. That is even if the premise Mormonism is based on is completely false, and its founder was a delusional religious maniac of some nature, whether one likes it or not that is just as completely fascinating perhaps more so than if it was true.

So the more false Mormonism is the more fascinating it is? It must be true because it strikes me as boring as hell.

Post by **_harmony** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:05 am

I don't think he planned on dying as young as he did. If he'd lived another 30 years he might have gotten around to aquiring some wealth.

Brigham certainly did. His estate was valued at something like $5 million when he died. Of course, a lot of his estate was really the church's, but why quibble.

Post by **_Baurak Ale** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:24 am

I am suggesting that explaining away Joseph Smith, from an Anti-Mormon perspective I believe it would be more effective to claim he was delusional or suffered from a mental illness, would be a more convincing explanation than con man. I just think that would be a better plan of attack as I don't believe the con man idealogy would really take with people, there's just too much to explain that goes far beyound the scope of a con man.

James, I got the impression you were thoroughly interested in Mormonism by your frequent posts and activity on this board, I would've sworn on the Book of Mormon you were. However that could simply be a misconception of mine wouldn't be the first time, as you say you find it as boring as hell.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:14 pm

Baurak Ale wrote:
James, I got the impression you were thoroughly interested in Mormonism by your frequent posts and activity on this board, I would've sworn on the Book of Mormon you were. However that could simply be a misconception of mine wouldn't be the first time, as you say you find it as boring as hell.

To clarify:

Sarcasm! The history and archaeology part is very interesting to me (almost like a fictional novel). I think the leaders and their current message is very pedestrian and not really exciting, inspiring, or attractive. Or perhaps I'm growing bored.

Post by **_Fortigurn** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:51 pm

Baurak Ale wrote:Joseph Smith a simple con man, I do not think that is possible. A self deluded individual would be a possible model to use but a simple con man I don't think so. The excruciating trials and tribulations that Joseph Smith faced, I do not think a simple con man would have the fortitude to endure, in my opinion a con man would've bailed very early on in the piece. Joseph Smith had the absolute crap kicked out of him on so many occasions I would have to say in my opinion he clearly believed all his religious experiences and convictions. At the end of his life, he had a receeding hair line from poisen once administered, broken tooth from where a glass bottle of poisen was forced into his mouth. He walked with a limp from the surgery where a chunk of bone had been cut out of his leg in his childhood while he was fully concious. And he suffered from a bad back from when he recieved back sprains he had never recovered from where strong men in mobs had laid him out.

By the time this stuff was happening, he was in too deep to say 'Oh sorry, I was only joking!'. And of course, with the rough came the smooth - all those women and that authority over others.

If wanted to be really Mormon, I would accuse you of being 'Presentist', and claim (without evidence), that in early 19th century North America the people were rough and tough, and used to a few hard knocks, so none of this would have really slowed Smith down at all.

Post by **_Baurak Ale** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:20 pm

I think if he was telling porkies, that young teenage Joseph Smith would've desisted with his story of the vision after someone attempted to put a bullet through his head, while laying down hiding behind a wagon cart in a field. I think the kid would've bailed at that point, as that was clearly not childs play.

Post by **_Mercury** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:25 pm

Baurak Ale wrote:I think if he was telling porkies, that young teenage Joseph Smith would've desisted with his story of the vision after someone attempted to put a bullet through his head, while laying down hiding behind a wagon cart in a field. I think the kid would've bailed at that point, as that was clearly not childs play.

I believe you are referring to the tale where jow overheard someone saying they would kill joe if they could but it JUST SO HAPPENED he was walking by at the same time. Am I correct?

Post by **_Fortigurn** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:50 pm

Baurak Ale wrote:I think if he was telling porkies, that young teenage Joseph Smith would've desisted with his story of the vision after someone attempted to put a bullet through his head, while laying down hiding behind a wagon cart in a field. I think the kid would've bailed at that point, as that was clearly not childs play.

It seems you've over dramatized this event signfiicantly. By the way, who's the effeminate man in your avatar?