Transparency in Church Finances

[_Jason Bourne]

Here's what I have a problem with. I'm supposed to pay 1/10th of my salary-and then I must submit to an interview and accounting of that.

It is not much of an interview and certainly not an accounting. "Does this represent a full tithe?" is not an accounting at all.

Why do I have to adhere to different standards than the church itself?

I don't know. I am not sure there are different standards at all. I think the Church should disclose but not based ono the reeasons you provide here.

I am not a fool tithe payer though.

What do you mean?

[_Jason Bourne]

You're conflating things again, Mak. Ajax isn't talking about MP's. Read his last sentence again: "It seems to me that for some of the Brethren, being called to the Twelve or Seventy was a big financial promotion." He's talking about the Brethren. The Twelve. And he's right; for some of them (like Packer, who was a CES employee, If I recall correctly), it was a promotion, and one heckuva jump in salary.

You just do not know this. Nor do I. It may or may not have been a jump in Salary, or it may have been a small jump or a really big jump. But you do not know it was a heckuva jump ofr Packer. Don't state it like a fact.

[_Jason Bourne]

Well, I have to tell what my salary is. If I tell them I'm a full tithe payer and I paid $7000, they know I made 70k that year. The church doesn't tell us how much they made OR what they did with the money.

The church is not subordinate to you.

If someone is having financial difficulty, instead of doing the charitable thing which would be just to help someone out, from what I understand, they get all up in a person's business.

Nope. When I was branch president the only reason I asked about their finances was to get their bills so I could pay them. As much as so many of the people around here are rabid about the economic dishonesty that goes on behind closed doors, they're wrong. They don't know any more about the way we are trained to approach those situations as a fish knows about the stock market. That they keep dismissing my experiences in favor of their a priori assumptions is a riot. "It's been strongly speculated!" as if that means anything other than they guessed.

I do not see anyone pointing at financial malfeasance here. Just that they financial ought to be published. It is a good policy. Most other large churches do this. It is called transparency and it important as well that those who run the church demonstrate that they are keeping their fiduciary responsibility in managing the funds that are donated by the members often at great sacrifice.

[_Who Knows]

I personally don't think the church is being hurt by it right now.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're right. They probably have more to lose by disclosing everything.

[_maklelan]

I personally don't think the church is being hurt by it right now.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're right. They probably have more to lose by disclosing everything.

I don't agree with the common theory in this board that the church is dangling by a thin thread of deception. If only the church were as fragile as you all imagine it to be.

[_harmony]

I personally don't think the church is being hurt by it right now.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're right. They probably have more to lose by disclosing everything.

I don't agree with the common theory in this board that the church is dangling by a thin thread of deception. If only the church were as fragile as you all imagine it to be.

Actually, I don't see the church dangling by a thin thread of deception. Some of the leaders, on the other hand....

I think if the members knew how much money the Brethren are paid, and some of the things on which the money is spent, there would be quite a bit more murmuring in the rank and file. The rank and file takes the "unpaid clergy" thing very seriously, among other fiscal policies.

[_harmony]

You're conflating things again, Mak. Ajax isn't talking about MP's. Read his last sentence again: "It seems to me that for some of the Brethren, being called to the Twelve or Seventy was a big financial promotion." He's talking about the Brethren. The Twelve. And he's right; for some of them (like Packer, who was a CES employee, If I recall correctly), it was a promotion, and one heckuva jump in salary.

You just do not know this. Nor do I. It may or may not have been a jump in Salary, or it may have been a small jump or a really big jump. But you do not know it was a heckuva jump ofr Packer. Don't state it like a fact.

Okay, in my opinion, Packer got a huge promotion and likely one heckuva jump in salary.

Is that better?

[_Jason Bourne]

You're conflating things again, Mak. Ajax isn't talking about MP's. Read his last sentence again: "It seems to me that for some of the Brethren, being called to the Twelve or Seventy was a big financial promotion." He's talking about the Brethren. The Twelve. And he's right; for some of them (like Packer, who was a CES employee, If I recall correctly), it was a promotion, and one heckuva jump in salary.

You just do not know this. Nor do I. It may or may not have been a jump in Salary, or it may have been a small jump or a really big jump. But you do not know it was a heckuva jump ofr Packer. Don't state it like a fact.

Okay, in my opinion, Packer got a huge promotion and likely one heckuva jump in salary.

Is that better?

Much better.

Thanks

[_Who Knows]

I personally don't think the church is being hurt by it right now.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're right. They probably have more to lose by disclosing everything.

I don't agree with the common theory in this board that the church is dangling by a thin thread of deception. If only the church were as fragile as you all imagine it to be.

I never said anything about deception. Could there be some shenanigans going on? Maybe, maybe not - but we don't know. We have no idea. I actually doubt it.

I just think that most people would be shocked to see how wealthy the church is, and where/when/how their tithing money is being spent, how much 'administrative' costs there are, how much the GA's are making, etc. while Joe Schmoe is out cleaning the toilets in the chapel for free.

[_Mister Scratch]

I personally don't think the church is being hurt by it right now.

Relatively speaking, I'm sure you're right. They probably have more to lose by disclosing everything.

I don't agree with the common theory in this board that the church is dangling by a thin thread of deception. If only the church were as fragile as you all imagine it to be.

I never said anything about deception. Could there be some shenanigans going on? Maybe, maybe not - but we don't know. We have no idea. I actually doubt it.

I just think that most people would be shocked to see how wealthy the church is, and where/when/how their tithing money is being spent, how much 'administrative' costs there are, how much the GA's are making, etc. while Joe Schmoe is out cleaning the toilets in the chapel for free.

Excellent points. It's true that our remarks on Church finances are speculative, but it's not as if they are wildly speculative. We know certain things. E.g.
---The Church has spent billions on the mall in downtown SLC
---Elder Henry Moyle seriously bungled his handling of Church finances during (I believe) the 1950s, and was rebuked by Elder Clark.
---The Church has been "penny pinching" in arenas such as janitorial services.
---The Brethren are given a sort of "expense account credit card" of some kind.
---Many millions of dollars appear to be going towards PR campaigns (especially under the leadership of GBH, ever since roughly the mid 1980s).
---In the UK and Canada, a very, very small percentage of funds is spend on charitable work (which sort of undermines Mak's "millions to Africa" analogy).
---There has been a huge campaign to building temples (again, this is under the leadership of GBH).
---One can spend a fair amount of time trekking through the labyrinth of Church investments in cattle ranches, land in Hawai'i, businesses, banks, etc., etc., to get a clearer picture of how the money is being spent/invested.

So: it's not as if it is a *complete* secret. It's true that we are forced to speculate, but we can make good and educated guesses about what the Brethren are doing with the Church's money.