What would it take for you to leave Mormonism?

[_The Dude]

You're right. However, I think the support of how it is testable is important to bring up. In other words, it's more than just is not vs is so argument--at least from my point of view...

I think one can only prove it to onesself and not to another person. That, I believe, is the nature of faith..

Yes, it's important to bring this up as a demonstration of how it is nothing like science.

So then Zero Knowledge Proofs are nothing like science? I coulda sworn it was an useful part of computer science. Must be my BYU education.

I think I can seen how Zero Knowledge Proofs are like science. I just don't see how religious experiments can function like ZKPs.

It could be like a scientific experiment, except for this:

I believe that God will not be tempted in such a manner as to demonstrate this under scientific controls. Rather He will answer the sincere in His own time in His own way.

If you go back to that Cave Story (in the link you gave) and allow Peggy to "not be tempted" except when she feels like it, then how can Victor ever eliminate the possibility that she is lying to him? Fifty percent of the time she will come back by the wrong corridor and say "I wasn't feeling like it that time so it doesn't count."

[_maklelan]

I wasn't really trying to be funny - I was serious. The quotes you provided basically say that.

Religion is not pseudoscience - it can be tested.

So let's test it. Let's get 100 random people in a room, have them read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, and see what kinds of answers they get. What do you say?

But this test assumes that God acts inside the same mathematical system as physics. Humans don't, so why should we assume that God will?

[_asbestosman]

If you go back to that Cave Story (in the link you gave) and allow Peggy to "not be tempted" except when she feels like it, then how can Victor ever eliminate the possibility that she is lying to him? Fifty percent of the time she will come back by the wrong corridor and say "I wasn't feeling like it that time so it doesn't count."

That is a good point and is a detail I haven't quite worked out. However, I do not believe it is fatal. I think there is more to the story here. I would certainly appreciate some other smart LDS people (maybe the guys at FARMS/FAIR/BYU) improving upon my idea.

[_maklelan]

Who introduced you to Mormonism?

No one introduced me to it, really. I had a friend who occasionally talked about it, but she lived in another state. I was always out on a drug binge when she was around and she didn't bother trying to teach me anything abouyt it. After a brush with death when I ODed I decided I needed to find out what I was doing with my life. I started to read all of the sacred literature I could find. I read the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, The Lao-tzu, the Bible and whatever else I could find. I thought the Book of Mormon would be a fun way to remind myself of my friend, but I thought the story was hard to follow and the names were stupid. When I wasn't reading it I wanted to be reading it, though, and the lessons of the story started to jump out at me and my life started changing. I would rush home early from work so I could read it. I got to a part about baptism and decided I needed to take the next step if I was going to continue having this force for good in my life. I found out from a friend who I had to talk to and I went to church one Sunday in jeans and a t-shirt to look for the missionaries. I found them and walked up to them and said, "Hi, I'm Dan. What do I have to do to get baptized?" They told me to pray about the Book of Mormon. Up to this point I hadn't prayed about it, but I figured it was important enough to try. I had a few very spiritual experiences verify for me that I was doing the right thing, so I got baptized. Best decision I've ever made.

Well, good for you. Mormonism is definitely a step up from drug addiction. That doesn't make it God's Truth, however, and I hope you'll be open to further progression in this world.

And if I told you that posting here reminds me of the atmosphere of my previous life would you be offended or would you respect it as my opinion, just as you expect me to respect your post as your opinion?

[_The Dude]

If you go back to that Cave Story (in the link you gave) and allow Peggy to "not be tempted" except when she feels like it, then how can Victor ever eliminate the possibility that she is lying to him? Fifty percent of the time she will come back by the wrong corridor and say "I wasn't feeling like it that time so it doesn't count."

That is a good point and is a detail I haven't quite worked out. However, I do not believe it is fatal. I think there is more to the story here. I would certainly appreciate some other smart LDS people (maybe the guys at FARMS/FAIR/BYU) improving upon my idea.

I never heard of the Zero-Knoweldge Proof, so, thanks for that link. Interesting idea, and obviously useful.

If by "fatal" you mean "different from the way science works" then -- yes it is fatal. With that caveat hanging over your experiment, the method of religious experimentation is perfect pseudoscience.

Why did the palm reader get my mother's birthday wrong? Because there was a skeptic in the room. Or because she's having an off day. Or because the stars are out of whack. Or because her familiar spirit has a hairball.

[_The Dude]

Does he speak of my personal faith, or does he reduce the faiths of millions to one easy to handle formula that he then takes apart?

"The faith of millions..." ah, you're so close Maklelan!

The real problem is millions of faiths.

Read my quote just a little harder.

Maklelan, I don't really want to do the rounds on this. You asked if Sagan makes a certain argument. No, in fact he makes a different argument. That's all I'm saying.

[_Gazelam]

Found this, thought I'd share it with your God Math question:

Okay, here's another.
Human body = 600,000,000,000,000 cells.
Each cell = 1,000,000,000,000 molecules.
Each molecule MUST be in a very specific place to function.
If ONE cell evolved trying once a second, 1 trillion seconds, possibly or about 31,710 years.for ONE cell to form! now multiply that times how many cells in the human body, 600,000,000,000,000. That's approximately 190,260 QUADRILLION years!!! Do the math.
Universe = 7 - 14 billions years old. Can't happen

[_Who Knows]

So the validity of an individual's faith is decided by the integrity and cohesiveness of the combined whole of all faith?

No - the validity of an individual's faith is only applicable to that one individual, and says nothing about any other faith.

[_Sethbag]

Gaz, don't be silly. Find me one evolutionary biologist who claims that an entire human being has ever come into existence, complete, from nothing (or from a soup of free molecules).

Also, CFR on your assertion that each of the 1 trillion molecules in each cell in your body has to be in exactly the right place in order for the cell to function.

[_Who Knows]

But this test assumes that God acts inside the same mathematical system as physics. Humans don't, so why should we assume that God will?

Well, that's kinda the point here.