What is the Miracle of Forgiveness? (revisited)

[Guest]

Hi all,

I took a moment of reflection and reread this thread from several years back. I wanted to resurrect it for a few reasons:

First, Even after all this time, I have not discarded my personal experiences although I have made little progress in understanding them. I am very interested in continuing a thoughtful conversation on the subject, (although I love the idea that the original discussion is only 3 pages long).

Second, it's a discussion where the participants respectfully remained on topic (for the most part). HOW REFRESSING!!

inc. (2012)
_______________________________

I read Kimball's "Miracle of Forgiveness" a couple times before serving a mission. This was in the early 80's. The information in it skewed my life for a number of years (and much of my mission experience).

Let's pretend for a moment that the Book of Mormon is true. There are at least 4 specific accounts of the miracle of forgiveness: Enos, Alma, the people of King Benjamin and even king Lamoni.

Enos states that his guilt was swept away - it vanished in an instant. Much like the dove in a magic trick. In fact, he was so amazed that he asked God how it was done - just like someone who just witnessed a magic trick. I've witnessed this forgiveness event. I thought it was so amazing too that I wanted to experience it again - but just not willing to sin to repeat it. But I have felt it more than once. I did not anticipate the feeling, it just occurred. I didn't really expect how it felt.

I describe the feeling before the miracle as one of my soul feeling broken or poisoned (the same feeling you get when you've been physically injured and you haven't recieved first aid yet - whether the need is for a little bandaid or morphine). After - a feeling of peace. The Guilt or pain gone. I equate peace with love because it was an act of kindness to remove this pain from me.

The people of Benjamin felt the same. After the miracle, they then spoke of not having the desire to do evil but good continually. After the miracle their hearts were changed - They were "born again" as Children of Christ.

But Kimball said that the road to forgiveness is a long and difficult journey. He made it one for me, because I believed him (and shot well beyond the mark). According to the Book of Mormon, it certainly is not. I think he (and most of the leaders) never understood that forgiveness is a seperate issue from the ripple effect the sin has set in motion.

The sons of Mosiah labored all their days righting the wrongs they had done to the church - after they witnessed the Miracle of Forgiveness. Not before.

The Book of Mormon (AND the Bible) teach that it isn't what we've done in the past, it's who we are now, after we are changed in Christ. I think the "cupcake is licked" to those who have been taught to think only carnally and not necessarily spiritually.

How can a person say they are spiritually connected with God if they have yet to experience this Miracle for themselves?

Thoughts?
_________

ps..

I want to clarify that I do not believe that Joseph Smith was or is a prophet. I have no idea how he ended up with a Book of Mormon. I truly believe he, BY and others didn't read it. If they did, they didn't understand it on so many levels - whether it is true or not.

[_Gazelam]

I think your forgeting the priciple of Enduring to the end?

A person can be forgiven of their sins in the waters of baptism. As baptism is a gate, that sets you on a path to salvation, a person must continue to be obedient after they are forgiven.

Does this answer your question?

[_Inconceivable]

I think your forgeting the priciple of Enduring to the end?

A person can be forgiven of their sins in the waters of baptism. As baptism is a gate, that sets you on a path to salvation, a person must continue to be obedient after they are forgiven.

Does this answer your question?

no.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think your forgeting the priciple of Enduring to the end?

A person can be forgiven of their sins in the waters of baptism. As baptism is a gate, that sets you on a path to salvation, a person must continue to be obedient after they are forgiven.

Does this answer your question?

It hardly answers the question. By the way Gaz, I prefer the term Abiding in Christ much better the ENDURE TO THE END. Has a better ring to it.

I have mixed feelings over the book. I think it is very harsh and punitive while it does offer some good ideas. The last three chapters are pretty good.

Certainly the Book of Mormon teaches one must have abroekn heart and contrite spirit for forgiveness from God. But I do not think that means to takes to the degree SWK does in his book. Long term guilt, shame, and so on is just not what I have come to understand as the good news of the gospel.

Over all I think the book has caused excessive and unnecessary guilt and is not a a book I would recommend. I like Believing Christ and Following Christ by Stephen Robinson and Grace Works by Millet far better.

[_Runtu]

But Kimball said that the road to forgiveness is a long and difficult journey. He made it one for me, because I believed him (and shot well beyond the mark). According to the Book of Mormon, it certainly is not. I think he (and most of the leaders) never understood that forgiveness is a seperate issue from the ripple effect the sin has set in motion.

The sons of Mosiah labored all their days righting the wrongs they had done to the church - after they witnessed the Miracle of Forgiveness. Not before.

The Book of Mormon (AND the Bible) teach that it isn't what we've done in the past, it's who we are now, after we are changed in Christ. I think the "cupcake is licked" to those who have been taught to think only carnally and not necessarily spiritually.

How can a person say they are spiritually connected with God if they have yet to experience this Miracle for themselves?

Thoughts?
_________

ps..

I want to clarify that I do not believe that Joseph Smith was or is a prophet. I have no idea how he ended up with a Book of Mormon. I truly believe he, BY and others didn't read it. If they did, they didn't understand it on so many levels - whether it is true or not.

From my perspective, much of what was in that book centered on what is uniquely human. We had a discussion the other day about how Mormonism expects perfection, but what it really expects is self-denial. There is a narrow set of acceptable human emotions and behaviors, and when you deviate, you have to experience the "miracle of forgiveness." But what Kimball is talking about as "forgiveness" isn't so much the change of heart or godly forgiveness but rather the changing of behavior to conform to those narrow norms. And trying to force yourself to conform to Mormon standards of behavior when your human self tells you do to do something else is indeed a long and painful road.

[_Inconceivable]

I think your forgeting the priciple of Enduring to the end?

A person can be forgiven of their sins in the waters of baptism. As baptism is a gate, that sets you on a path to salvation, a person must continue to be obedient after they are forgiven.

Does this answer your question?

no.

Gazelam, here's an intended jab toward you but really it is more of a global observation of leadership as well as the general membership (following this quote):

12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

(Book of Mormon | Alma 5:9 - 16)

A mighty change of heart is not simply indoctrination, a self righteous belief in being chosen, the mechanical act of doing, being quick with doctrinal platitudes or an entitlement extended merely by being baptised (keep in mind, Enos was baptised but did not witness the miracle of forgiveness till he was older).

A Pastor friend explained what he called being "saved". It is a little different definition that is accepted by Mormons. When a person witnesses this mighty change of heart his intent is changed. His rebellion is driven from him through Christs forgiveness and that feeling of love. His desire is to walk in the spirit of love and kindness. Any subsequent "sin" committed by this man is uninteded so it has already been forgiven. Thus he views himself as saved. He understood that just saying "I accept Jesus" without the faith in Christ's promise to bring about the miracle falls short. ok.

I had neither a need to repent or be forgiven before being baptised at 8 years old. Neither did Jesus. I see it as perhaps a mechanical demonstration of a willingness to live righteously - an intent to live a Christlike life.

So what does it mean by baptism for "remission" of sins if some have been forgiven before baptism? Keeping in mind there is even an example of this among Mormon doctrine - King Lamoni in the Book of Mormon.

[_Inconceivable]

"..Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

Have any of you actually heard someone relate this specific personal experience where they felt the burden of guilt was lifted (while praying) and the desire to repeat whatever done vanished? Have any of you felt it? Why is it that though I'm in my 40's I've never actually heard it from the pulpit? Is it embarrassing? Too sacred for Mormons to share with other Mormons? I have heard a very few accounts from within the Mormon church. Others I have heard personal experiences from a couple friends that "witnessed" to me that belonged to other Christian denominations. The clues that they had had some sort of change was that they were truly kind and charitable people.

The above seems to be downplayed and replaced with the verse where Jesus is quoted in the Book of Mormon by saying that when some of the Lamanites had this change "they knew it not" - meaning that it's ok not to really notice a change, just keeping paying tithing, "doing" hometeaching etc. and eventually it will occure to you that you're changed and forgiven - a process of "refinement" or something. I can see how this had caused me much anxiety over the years - wondering.

If you never recognized the "experience" of your heart being changed then when do you realize it happened and who and what did it?


I thought I knew the answers. Much of my faith and belief in even a Jesus has been torpedoed by the evil perpetrated by those I thought represented the true and only path.

[_Gazelam]

I think what you are refering to is what is known as the Holy Spirit of Promise.

From Mormon Doctrine:

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Spirit promised the saints, or in other words the Holy Ghost. This name-title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost, that is, the power given him to ratify and approve the righteous acts of men so that those acts will be binding on earth and in heaven. "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations," must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have "efficasy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." (D&C 132:7)........

Lets take an example. A couple can be married in the Temple, but the mariage is of no force unless the couple is living up to the promises made and the marriage is ratified by the company of the Holy Ghost so that he may seal the marriage.

The same can be said of Baptism.

That being said, there are those like you mentioned who are baptised while sinless and had no sins to remit at baptism. The promise of washing away sins extends beyond the waters of baptism. The covenant can be renewed in the partaking of the sacrament in righteousness or in righteous living and receiving the company of the Holy Ghost which sanctifies a person. (D&C 88:11-41)

One can be said to receive the miricle of forgiveness in the recognizing the company of the Holy Ghost as a confirmation that you are right with God in your actions. His company ratifies the covenants you ahve made and allows you to know that you are "going in the right direction" if you'll allow that expression.

Gaz

[_Inconceivable]

I think what you are refering to is what is known as the Holy Spirit of Promise.Gaz

No, not really. The Holy Ghost has lots of jobs and perhaps this was one of them. I'm being specific here.

Read Enos. His guilt left him. His "experience" was a specific moment in time. His heart changed as well as his awareness of righteous intents and desires - he prayed for his friends and loved ones to experience the same feeling, then he extended the request even to his enemies.

What I have asked about is, for example: Gaz, (or anyone else out there) have you had this experience of the miracle of forgiveness? Like this one?

King Benjamin speaks of his people, after they having had this same experience, then and there becoming "children of Christ". I assume that most of his people had been baptised perhaps some even years before. Yet on that day, having been members of the "church" all their lives, that day they became "children of Christ".

What day did you become a child of Christ? Seems it doesn't necessarily coincide with the mechanics of a baptismal/membership date.

One can be said to receive the miricle of forgiveness in the recognizing the company of the Holy Ghost as a confirmation that you are right with God in your actions. His company ratifies the covenants you have made and allows you to know that you are "going in the right direction" if you'll allow that expression.

Gaz

One can, I suppose. Recognizing the "confirmation" will be in the form of peace or absense of guilt where previously there was guilt. "...come to think of it, I don't feel guilty anymore. I wonder when that happened?" - That is a pretty subtle miracle, but a miracle nevertheless. I guess. But to be born a child of Christ and not even remember when it happened? (!)

A prayer of gratitude could go something like this: "..thanks for that miracle thing I totally didn't recognize when it happened. I guess I got it". Are we so carnal that we fail to recognize the spiritual pot of gold when it is given? Maybe we have such a sense of self righteous entitlement that we assume we been sitting in it all along.

I'm starting to think that this is not that.

[_Jason Bourne]

"..Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

Have any of you actually heard someone relate this specific personal experience where they felt the burden of guilt was lifted (while praying) and the desire to repeat whatever done vanished? Have any of you felt it? Why is it that though I'm in my 40's I've never actually heard it from the pulpit? Is it embarrassing? Too sacred for Mormons to share with other Mormons? I have heard a very few accounts from within the Mormon church. Others I have heard personal experiences from a couple friends that "witnessed" to me that belonged to other Christian denominations. The clues that they had had some sort of change was that they were truly kind and charitable people.

The above seems to be downplayed and replaced with the verse where Jesus is quoted in the Book of Mormon by saying that when some of the Lamanites had this change "they knew it not" - meaning that it's ok not to really notice a change, just keeping paying tithing, "doing" hometeaching etc. and eventually it will occure to you that you're changed and forgiven - a process of "refinement" or something. I can see how this had caused me much anxiety over the years - wondering.

If you never recognized the "experience" of your heart being changed then when do you realize it happened and who and what did it?


I thought I knew the answers. Much of my faith and belief in even a Jesus has been torpedoed by the evil perpetrated by those I thought represented the true and only path.

I think you would have liked Elder Uchdorf's talk in the final session of conference yesterday.