? for Ray A

[_Yoda]

Which is more offensive? Do you ever hear LDS leaders referring to "kiss ass exmos"? Would you really like me to reverse the roles and place exmo statements in Church leaders' mouths and hear it? Maybe when I have more time, but it will probably be placed in Outer Darkness. And as Sam noted, he is not the only one doing this.

Ray, if I had to choose between being called a "kiss ass" and what I've been called by Mormons on MADB and elsewhere, I'd prefer to be called a kiss ass any day. I've been told I couldn't handle keeping the commandments, was lazy in my spiritual development, was looking for an excuse to leave, let Satan into my heart, was too easily offended, have spiritually destroyed my family, have deceived my wife (and they threatened to end my marriage, I might I add), am deluded/deceived/evil/nasty, and so on, ad nauseam.

Do you really think that calling Bednar a "kiss ass" is more offensive than that?

Namecalling is childish and stupid. I agree that there's far too much anger out there, but, damnit, it's on both sides, not just the exmo side. Calling us Nazis isn't exactly going to help improve the tone, is it? Of course, trying to improve the tone on MADB just gets you banned.

Can I just add a big AMEN to this? To the part bolded, in particular.

If you, as a critic, are attacking the Church, then, ok, you're fair game for a believer to "return fire". But what about those who simply have questions? I'm not talking about trolls now. I'm talking about sincere members, like myself, who have questions regarding Church policy. We are put through a meat grinder on a board like FAIR/MAD, and, it's frankly, very disheartening to be treated that way by members of your Church.

Edited to add---

In my view, some of the folks on MAD have been just as hateful and spiteful as some who have offended folks here.

If you are reading this group the riot act...In my opinion, the same lecture should also be given to the folks at MAD.

[_Ray A]

Institutionalized bigotry always Trump's random, childish statements, Ray, because it has the force of authority - particularly if that authority is coming from GOD.

A God, I might add, beastie, you don't believe in. Or do you? If Santa Claus was behind this, would it worry you as much? Or Thor, or Krishna?. That's what I don't understand. If Mormonism is so obviously fake and fradulent, why do exmos keep being SO concerned? It's trash. It's a myth. It's a blatant fraud. Yet you all take it so seriously!!

Why?

It's sort of like there being a campaign against Aboriginal Dreamtime legends.

[_beastie]

A God, I might add, beastie, you don't believe in. Or do you? If Santa Claus was behind this, would it worry you as much? Or Thor, or Krishna?. That's what I don't understand. If Mormonism is so obviously fake and fradulent, why do exmos keep being SO concerned? It's trash. It's a myth. It's a blatant fraud. Yet you all take it so seriously!!

Why?

It's sort of like there being a campaign against Aboriginal Dreamtime legends.

For heaven's sake, Ray, I take it seriously because believers take it seriously.

If one were to accept your premise, none of us should be concerned when notable Muslem Imams teach their followers that Allah approves of acts of violence against innocent others in order to achieve a greater good.

I don't believe in Allah nor this propaganda, but it concerns me quite a bit that there are evidently enough believers who believe it to sign up for duty.

[_Ray A]

Taking this thread in a completely different direction (based on some of your above comments):

Does all criticism have to be completely serious?

Can people have a laugh at the expense of their religious leaders?

No, all criticism doesn't have to be serious. But what exmos find funny, Mormons might not. I think there are some humourous entries in your blog, when you don't make it personal. In any case, some of the entries made me laugh, and I think many Mormons would too. What is not funny is making fun of people, especially in a cynical or sarcastic way. Sarcastic comments about the Prophet's age or appearance is not funny to Mormons.

I have moved in a wide variety of social circles, from swearing truck drivers and cab drivers, to what I would call the "more refined" LDS humour, and you may not know this, but President Hinckley has a great sense of humour, without being crude. I listened to him talk for some two or three hours in an LDS chapel in Adelaide in 1976, when I was a young missionary. I also listened to the then Elder Thomas Monson speak for about four hours straight in the Sutherland Chapel in south Sydney in 1975. He only paused several times to sip on a glass of water. In those days it was different, and it was not uncommon for an Apostle to come out and visit a chapel like this. In those days the most prominent anti-Mormons were the Tanners, and they were tame compared to the bile and personal gutter attacks we see today. I could never imagine them deriding Mormon leaders as we see today, nor drawing the caricatures we see. Until you experience Mormonism you cannot really appreciate the rich culture they have, and I think some exmos forget that. But it's on a very different level to swearing truck drivers and their humour, which I also find funny. A lot of my attachment to Mormonism is also cultural, which you really can't see on forums. As a Mormon I certainly didn't live a humourless life, but it was not the kind of humour that swearing truck drivers would find funny.

[_marg]

A God, I might add, beastie, you don't believe in. Or do you? If Santa Claus was behind this, would it worry you as much? Or Thor, or Krishna?. That's what I don't understand. If Mormonism is so obviously fake and fradulent, why do exmos keep being SO concerned? It's trash. It's a myth. It's a blatant fraud. Yet you all take it so seriously!!

Why?

It's sort of like there being a campaign against Aboriginal Dreamtime legends.

Ray if Mormonism is so real, why don't you take it more seriously, and support the chruch with your time and with tithing? You obviously do not think it worthy, yet you want others to continue to support it.

You do Mormons no favors by bashing exmormons who are unselfishly attempting to help Mormons break away from servitude to an authoritarian multi billion dollar organization which is continuuing to extract time and money from its members and which aggressively uses modern marketing techniques to recruite more. And for what Ray? So what are members offered Ray? Not much more than a guilt ridden life, hope they will end up in a special heaven if they follow all the rules, a perpetual feeling they must do more to please? What does the organization truly care about? Not the members, but the perpetuation of itself for the sake of perpetuation.

Sure one of its good rules which you focus on to the extreme is the encouragement of no drinking of alcohol, but it's an expensive club to join for that reason, when the majority of people who do drink don't drink to excess or commit the crimes you suggest of anyone who does.

I see ex-Mormons as the good guys. I see you as being star struck by Daniel P. , so thrilled that he visited and spent some time with you. You act like a devoted groupie, unable to tolerate any criticism of your idol and so you lash out in anger and distort and lie about those who do criticize him, his cronies and his board of groupies.

You've always been a bit of a loose cannon Ray. Your depiction of exmormons is grossly distorted and you misunderstand and misrepresent their intent. They truly care about Mormons, having been there done that. You don't seem to, but you have managed to extract your life from the church, haven't you?

[_Ray A]

Ray if Mormonism is so real, why don't you take it more seriously, and support the chruch with your time and with tithing? You obviously do not think it worthy, yet you want others to continue to support it.

You do Mormons no favors by bashing exmormons who are unselfishly attempting to help Mormons break away from servitude to an authoritarian multi billion dollar organization which is continuuing to extract time and money from its members and which aggressively uses modern marketing techniques to recruite more. And for what Ray? So what are members offered Ray? Not much more than a guilt ridden life, hope they will end up in a special heaven if they follow all the rules, a perpetual feeling they must do more to please? What does the organization truly care about? Not the members, but the perpetuation of itself for the sake of perpetuation.

Sure one of its good rules which you focus on to the extreme is the encouragement of no drinking of alcohol, but it's an expensive club to join for that reason, when the majority of people who do drink don't drink to excess or commit the crimes you suggest of anyone who does.

I see ex-Mormons as the good guys. I see you as being star struck by Daniel P. , so thrilled that he visited and spent some time with you. You act like a devoted groupie, unable to tolerate any criticism of your idol and so you lash out in anger and distort and lie about those who do criticize him, his cronies and his board of groupies.

You've always been a bit of a loose cannon Ray. Your depiction of exmormons is grossly distorted and you misunderstand and misrepresent their intent. They truly care about Mormons, having been there done that. You don't seem to, but you have managed to extract your life from the church, haven't you?

I think I hear a dog barking somewhere in the backyard. Oh, is that you, marg? You already know what I think about your opinions and your low intelligence. As I said, this will be the last thread I post on in this CESSPOOL. And if you don't mind, I'd rather you butt out of this thread with your braindead tripe.

I don't think you realise, marg, how many on this forum realise what a twit you are, but never say so. GIMR is one who has said something. You like attention, and like to make people think you're smart, don't you? You like to butt in to threads with your sub-zero IQ and asinine comments, and put on a show of learning on other threads which is obviously fake. Remember, marg, you are the expert on everything who has read nothing about what you criticise. You have the biggest inferiority complex I've seen in any person. The best thing you could do to raise the intelligence of humanity, and this forum, is - say nothing.

[_marg]

I think I hear a dog barking somewhere in the backyard. Oh, is that you, marg? You already know what I think about your opinions and your low intelligence. As I said, this will be the last thread I post on in this CESSPOOL. And if you don't mind, I'd rather you butt out of this thread with your braindead tripe.

I don't think you realise, marg, how many on this forum realise what a twit you are, but never say so. GIMR is one who has said something. You like attention, and like to make people think you're smart, don't you? You like to butt in to threads with your sub-zero IQ and asinine comments, and put on a show of learning on other threads which is obviously fake. Remember, marg, you are the expert on everything who has read nothing about what you criticise. You have the biggest inferiority complex I've seen in any person. The best thing you could do to raise the intelligence of humanity, and this forum, is - say nothing.

I must have said something right.

So go over to the MAD board and continue being a groupie for your idol DCP...you are better suited there with the mentality to match.

[_aussieguy55]

Don't worry Marg, from past experience he will be back. As an exmormon of many years ago with other interests in my life, I don't obsess about them just think its sad people are involved in something that's based on a fraud. Both you and I know the story regarding the Book of Abraham. The BOB and Fac 1 were next to each other, the name of the deceased appears on both, the backing paper matches. Ab 1:18 refers to the Fac at the beginning, the "BOB". Manuscripts are found with the words of the Book of Abraham and symbols from the BOB juxtaposed along side. The arguments against the Book of Abraham are so logical Why don't LDS see that? What do u think that is Marg? Stubborness? delusion?

[_marg]

The arguments against the Book of Abraham are so logical Why don't LDS see that? What do u think that is Marg? Stubborness? delusion?

I was not indoctrinated into any religion, so I have a difficult time understanding how an intelligent individual can believe the most irrational literally insane ideas, many do.

It seems to be that early indoctrination is a key factor. For some reason adults have a difficult time evaluating their religious beliefs and adjusting to evidence and/or reasoning which rationally should lead one to a different conclusion than previously held/believed. Fear seems to play a factor. Fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of retribution, fear of persecution, fear of being alone that the tribe one belongs to will abandon one, fear of being judged negatively, fear of not being able to cope without the tribes support, seem to be factors which individuals perceive could impact them if they abandon their beliefs and/or support of the church. Benefits which motivate one to stay include among others family cohesion, group support, relinquishment of responsibility to authority, perhaps prestige or recognition within the group.

Inability to rationalize well probably plays a key factor for many who do become aware of potentially damaging information to the church. In the early inception of Mormonism and Christianity those who were attracted to it tended to be the ignorant, the credulous.

On the internet I do notice that religious people who argue for their position tend not to appreciate that their assumptions which they take for granted have not been established and could be wrong. So for example an individual might be quite willing to criticize an aspect of the church, i.e. God didn't command polygamy yet will fail to appreciate that the Book of Mormon hasn't been proven divine or historical, that they may just take for granted without ever critically evaluting.

At this point in time, I'd say that the brain appears to be easily and effectively programmable to accept beliefs at a young age and that most people do not ever evaluate their programmed beliefs at adulthood. I think the majority of people do not naturally think critically well. There are highly intelligent people who despite their indoctrination overcome it because of their ability to evaluate critically..which includes being objective and skeptical. But it seems to be that the majority of people don't or aren't able to. Now for some people they are highly intelligent and despite the obvious of what the evidence indicates will maintain their (obvious to most objective individuals) highly irrational beliefs. I think what that might likely boil down to is that their perceived benefits for doing so exceeds the percieved costs. This I think probably applies to many of the MA&D board apologists who seem intelligent but do not appear to be able to critical evaluate well.

But it is fascinating to me. I have difficulty believing that people can believe the ridiculous things they do.

[_Ray A]

The arguments against the Book of Abraham are so logical Why don't LDS see that? What do u think that is Marg? Stubborness? delusion?

I was not indoctrinated into any religion, so I have a difficult time understanding how an intelligent individual can believe the most irrational literally insane ideas, many do.

It seems to be that early indoctrination is a key factor. For some reason adults have a difficult time evaluating their religious beliefs and adjusting to evidence and/or reasoning which rationally should lead one to a different conclusion than previously held/believed. Fear seems to play a factor. Fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of retribution, fear of persecution, fear of being alone that the tribe one belongs to will abandon one, fear of being judged negatively, fear of not being able to cope without the tribes support, seem to be factors which individuals perceive could impact them if they abandon their beliefs and/or support of the church. Benefits which motivate one to stay include among others family cohesion, group support, relinquishment of responsibility to authority, perhaps prestige or recognition within the group.

Inability to rationalize well probably plays a key factor for many who do become aware of potentially damaging information to the church. In the early inception of Mormonism and Christianity those who were attracted to it tended to be the ignorant, the credulous.

On the internet I do notice that religious people who argue for their position tend not to appreciate that their assumptions which they take for granted have not been established and could be wrong. So for example an individual might be quite willing to criticize an aspect of the church, I.e. God didn't command polygamy yet will fail to appreciate that the Book of Mormon hasn't been proven divine or historical, that they may just take for granted without ever critically evaluting.

At this point in time, I'd say that the brain appears to be easily and effectively programmable to accept beliefs at a young age and that most people do not ever evaluate their programmed beliefs at adulthood. I think the majority of people do not naturally think critically well. There are highly intelligent people who despite their indoctrination overcome it because of their ability to evaluate critically..which includes being objective and skeptical. But it seems to be that the majority of people don't or aren't able to. Now for some people they are highly intelligent and despite the obvious of what the evidence indicates will maintain their (obvious to most objective individuals) highly irrational beliefs. I think what that might likely boil down to is that their perceived benefits for doing so exceeds the percieved costs. This I think probably applies to many of the MA&D board apologists who seem intelligent but do not appear to be able to critical evaluate well.

But it is fascinating to me. I have difficulty believing that people can believe the ridiculous things they do.

Okay, you win, you can have the thread. You need the attention badly. You and Noel have to be the best tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum pair on the net.

Carry on your show. I'm sure all eyes are riveted to the wisdom of marg and Noel.