Heh. Now all I have to do is place a copy of Iliad or Odyssey in the hands of Joseph Smith (or maybe in the nearby library).
I suppose it is possible that Joseph was an avid student of Homer and that he took the Greek depiction of a divine council of deities together with the obscured references in the King James Bible and created a perfect example of a Near Eastern council story in the Book of Abraham including the symbolic use of stars and the image of a standing deity.
Then again, if Joseph was able to do that, then he was even more of an inspired prophet than I realized.
Heh. Now all I have to do is place a copy of Iliad or Odyssey in the hands of Joseph Smith (or maybe in the nearby library).
I suppose it is possible that Joseph was an avid student of Homer and that he took the Greek depiction of a divine council of deities together with the obscured references in the King James Bible and created a perfect example of a Near Eastern council story in the Book of Abraham including the symbolic use of stars and the image of a standing deity.
Then again, if Joseph was able to do that, then he was even more of an inspired prophet than I realized.
Well, call me crazy, but I think that situation more likely than 'god did it'.
But then again, I'm agnostic, so I believe there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything (even if we don't know what it is right now) that doesn't involve god's hand.
I know, I know, you're argument's better geared towards those that don't believe the Bible is also mythology...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:Well, call me crazy, but I think that situation more likely than 'god did it'.
But then again, I'm agnostic, so I believe there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything (even if we don't know what it is right now) that doesn't involve god's hand.
I know, I know, you're argument's better geared towards those that don't believe the Bible is also mythology...
If I understood you correctly, you were suggesting that the Bible may have picked up the council idea from Greek mythology, and then Joseph picked it up from the Bible. I'm with you that it makes more sense than "God did it" or "Joseph must have had one hell of a large library."
Heh. Now all I have to do is place a copy of Iliad or Odyssey in the hands of Joseph Smith (or maybe in the nearby library).
I suppose it is possible that Joseph was an avid student of Homer and that he took the Greek depiction of a divine council of deities together with the obscured references in the King James Bible and created a perfect example of a Near Eastern council story in the Book of Abraham including the symbolic use of stars and the image of a standing deity.
Then again, if Joseph was able to do that, then he was even more of an inspired prophet than I realized.
All he had to do was mangle Psalm 82:1 and 1 Kings 22. That's it. He clearly mangled Genesis 1:26, which is exactly what started him along the 'gods' theme, so everything else was a natural consequence. If he had read or heard of any of the discussion in the standard commentaries of the last 150 years, he would also have found the 'divine council' idea (though not in the form he presented it, of course).
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
Runtu wrote:If I understood you correctly, you were suggesting that the Bible may have picked up the council idea from Greek mythology, and then Joseph picked it up from the Bible. I'm with you that it makes more sense than "God did it" or "Joseph must have had one hell of a large library."
No, I wasn't really suggesting that. I wasn't really suggesting much more than the fact that this whole 'divine council' thing wasn't as deeply 'hidden' from modern eyes as DB seems to be suggesting. Nor did the ancient Bible have 'ownership' of this 'revolutionary' concept.
edit - oh, and i guess i was trying to make the point that given enough time, patience, diligence, and knowledge - you can pretty much tie anything to anything else. Especially when it comes to interpreting the Bible.
Last edited by canpakes on Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Who Knows wrote:Well, call me crazy, but I think that situation more likely than 'god did it'.
But then again, I'm agnostic, so I believe there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything (even if we don't know what it is right now) that doesn't involve god's hand.
I know, I know, you're argument's better geared towards those that don't believe the Bible is also mythology...
If I understood you correctly, you were suggesting that the Bible may have picked up the council idea from Greek mythology...
How did they do that, when the 'Divine council' Biblical texts were written prior to the first contact of the Jews with the Greeks?
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
Who Knows wrote:No, I wasn't really suggesting that. I wasn't really suggesting much more than the fact that this whole 'divine council' thing wasn't as deeply 'hidden' from modern eyes as DB seems to be suggesting. Nor did the ancient Bible have 'ownership' of this 'revolutionary' concept.
I completely agree. Again, I don't see the significance of David's discovery here. If a divine council is a common trope in mythology, why would anyone be surprised that Joseph appropriated it? I'm convinced that Joseph's talent lay not in religious innovation but instead in borrowing from various religious streams of thought and creating a more-or-less coherent system.
Who Knows wrote:Well, call me crazy, but I think that situation more likely than 'god did it'.
But then again, I'm agnostic, so I believe there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything (even if we don't know what it is right now) that doesn't involve god's hand.
I know, I know, you're argument's better geared towards those that don't believe the Bible is also mythology...
If I understood you correctly, you were suggesting that the Bible may have picked up the council idea from Greek mythology...
How did they do that, when the 'Divine council' Biblical texts were written prior to the first contact of the Jews with the Greeks?
Well, maybe it was the other way around. Who knows? I'm just not comfortable saying that the idea of a council is some mysterious, hidden truth that Joseph couldn't have known about.
Runtu wrote:Well, maybe it was the other way around. Who knows?
Couldn't have been, the Greeks had their pantheon well established while Israel was still in Babylon.
I'm just not comfortable saying that the idea of a council is some mysterious, hidden truth that Joseph couldn't have known about.
I agree totally:
Fortigurn wrote:All he had to do was mangle Psalm 82:1 and 1 Kings 22. That's it. He clearly mangled Genesis 1:26, which is exactly what started him along the 'gods' theme, so everything else was a natural consequence. If he had read or heard of any of the discussion in the standard commentaries of the last 150 years, he would also have found the 'divine council' idea (though not in the form he presented it, of course).
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
Is this Bokovoy one of their premier apologists? I hope not, for their sake. He just lit out after a couple of holes were pushed in his arguments.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|