Egyptologists and the Joseph Smith Papyri

[_Inconceivable]

Inconceivable,

Even Nibley considered the grammar completely worthless. I do believe Paul Osborne has identified one character that Joseph Smith translated correctly (even though he still got the transliteration wrong). It was the sign for "moon," I think, and it is round, which may be how Joseph Smith guessed it. Since there are about 40 characters studied in the Grammar, and each character is both translated and transliterated, that would make the Grammar just over one percent correct.

-CK

So if we were to give his ability to translate a margin of error of +-20%, at best it would 21%?

Good greif.

I'd have reservations following him into battle or even flying me to Hawaii. How about me and my family into eternity?

[_Paul Osborne]

Inconceivable,

Even Nibley considered the grammar completely worthless. I do believe Paul Osborne has identified one character that Joseph Smith translated correctly (even though he still got the transliteration wrong). It was the sign for "moon," I think, and it is round, which may be how Joseph Smith guessed it. Since there are about 40 characters studied in the Grammar, and each character is both translated and transliterated, that would make the Grammar just over one percent correct.

-CK

CK,

The symbol for the moon was NOT on the papyrus. Joseph Smith incorporated it into the Egyptian Alphabet. The signs for earth and sun were also adopted into the alphabet. It just so happens that the symbol for the moon was common knowledge because it was used anciently (including Egypt) as well as in modern times. Joseph just so happen to throw the signs in for good measure. The translation of all characters was a spiritual process that revealed concepts and information in general. Everyone knew that the symbol used for the moon simply meant, "moon". But Joseph took things to a whole new level. It seems that people just refuse or can't seem to understand this. But I think you can.

Here are some links that show how Joseph took three known signs giving their basic meaning and then expanding upon them into new levels of thought.

Earth: Jah-oh-eh

Moon: Flo-ees

Sun: Flosisis



Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

VegasRefugee,

How about you please stop slobbering all over this perfectly descent thread? If you can't talk coherently then it’s best you get the hell out of here. If you don’t, I’ll kick your ass you sorry punk!

Paul O

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi Paul,

A few points I need clarification on:
1. First of all, from your site it appears that the moon symbol in the GAEL is rotated 90 degrees from the actual hieroglyphic symbol for the moon. Correct?
2. Secondly, your most recent post implied that Joseph Smith's translations of all three of those symbols are Egyptologically correct. Am I understanding you correctly?
3. You seem to be implying that Joseph Smith got this information from some contemporary source. What source would you suggest?

The symbol for the moon was NOT on the papyrus

I'm afraid I must disagree; Joseph does seem to have derived this symbol from the papyrus. In the image below I have shown the line on the Book of Breathings from which I believe this symbol is drawn. I also show the Egyptian alphabet rendering of the character from KEPE 4 (which is in Oliver and Joseph's handwriting). And finally, I show how the same character and its immediate neighbors were used to fill in gaps on the "astronomical representation."



By the way, the character as it appears on the Sensen papyrus is even more suggestive of the moon than the version in the GAEL, because it creates a crescent-shape.

-CK

[_Paul Osborne]

1. First of all, from your site it appears that the moon symbol in the GAEL is rotated 90 degrees from the actual hieroglyphic symbol for the moon. Correct

Yeah, but the moon is still the moon, nonetheless.

2. Secondly, your most recent post implied that Joseph Smith's translations of all three of those symbols are Egyptologically correct. Am I understanding you correctly?

Egyptology today and the information in the EAG are of two different classes altogether. Abraham had a great knowledge of astronomy and shared some of this knowledge with the Egyptians. How much of that knowledge was preserved and passed down through the ages is anyone’s guess. Today, our understanding of what the Egyptians thought about astronomy is not comprehensive to say the least.

The moon sign in Joseph’s alphabet is rotated 90 degrees. I don’t know why this was done.

3. You seem to be implying that Joseph Smith got this information from some contemporary source. What source would you suggest?

Oh, probably any good book available in his day. Those symbols are common knowledge and have come down through the ages. They are ABC’s of astronomy.

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

CK,

There is no reason to link those characters in the Hypocephalus to the astronomy symbols listed in the EAG. The characters you point out come from a horizontal register that is left of Facsimile No. 1; that is NOT where the prophet employed the signs for the earth, moon, and sun as shown in the EAG. The prophet incorporated the signs in the first vertical register that is located to the right of Facsimile No. 1. They are not on the original papyrus but the prophet penciled them in, nonetheless.

Now, if you want to argue that the character you point out in the outer ring of the Hypocephalus is what Joseph considered to be a moon sign, then have it. But I don’t see it that way. If you compare characters from the papyrus and the EAG you will see that they are pretty much in order, one right after another. The EAG takes a set a signs from a register and fleshes them out in that order.

Here is where the prophet penciled in the signs for astronomy - the symbols for earth and moon are in the blue and the sun is right below it:




I would like to point out that the character you denote as being the moon in the outer rim of the Hypocephalus IS used in the Translation Manuscripts of the Book of Abraham but says nothing about the moon:

BAbr MS 1a; handwriting text of Frederick G. Williams


BAbr MS 1b; handwriting text of Warren Parrish


BAbr MS 2; handwriting text of Warren Parrish


Paul O

[_CaliforniaKid]

Paul, you might be right. I did find this in the GAEL:



Here the circle thingy and the L-shaped thingy appear to be treated as a single character, meaning "the first of anything." On the other hand, when we look at the location in the translation mss you identified--



--we find no explicit mention of the "first of anything." We do find a reference to Ur of the Chaldees, so maybe "the first of anything" here refers to Abraham's first residence.

Our answer (for whence Joseph Smith derived these symbols) may lie in one of Joseph Smith's occult or astrological texts. Many such texts discussed fixed stars and ancient symbols. Or perhaps it lies somewhere in Freemasonry. Or maybe it was transmitted to him by Michael Chandler, whose papyri had at one point been examined by some experts, who only managed to decipher an "epitaph". I will look into the question some more and get back to you.

It is interesting that the earth symbol is a circle divided in four quarters, since Joseph Smith interpreted fig 6 on facs 2 as symbolizing the earth's four quarters. Each of these symbols is suggestive of the meaning that Joseph Smith assigned to it.

-CK

[_CaliforniaKid]

Paul,

After poking around a bit, here are a few thoughts.

1) I have found nowhere either in hieroglyphic or in the 19th century where the sun is represented as a solid black circle. I did find some references to a symbol called "the black sun" that shows up in alchemical texts, but it is a wheel-like symbol with spokes and such. As best I can tell, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the almanacs and astrological texts contemporary with Joseph Smith represented the sun as a circle with a dot in the middle.
2) Contemporary almanacs showed the earth as a circle with a cross in the middle, precisely as in the GAEL. I have been unable to verify, however, that this an actual hieroglyphic symbol. http://books.google.com/books?vid=0vV5B ... h#PPA25,M1
3) I have been unable to locate anywhere besides your website that shows the "moon" hieroglyph as a bisected circle. I found many other versions of the moon hieroglyph, most of which show it as a crescent. It also appears as a crescent in most almanacs. The figure of a bisected circle, in fact, seems to be pretty rare. I did find a couple old British almanacs that used it, though precisely what they meant it to signify is still unclear to me. Perhaps a measurement of the moon's diameter? One occurrence of the symbol is shown below.



This page from Nasa shows both the actual hieroglyphic sun symbol and the earth symbol we've been discussing:

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/gall ... browse.jpg

[_Paul Osborne]

CK,

That was very good of you to dig up the Almanac. Bravo!

I don’t know why a dark circle (or oversized dot) was employed for the sun. A circle with a dot is the correct form. That’s also the hieroglyph for the sun in the Egyptian language. What’s important is that the intended signs are in place right there in the EAG register. This certainly suggests that Joseph Smith wasn’t translating in an ordinary manner as most people would expect. He was doing his own thing - and I think he was inspired.

Paul O

[_Brackite]

The evidence is indeed very, very overwhelming that the Book of Breathings text ((also known as Shait en Sensen) "Breathing permit" for the priest Hor text), is indeed the very source from which the Book of Abraham came from.

Brackite,

That was not an accurate statement.

It would read better if it said, "The evidence PROVES that the Book of Breathings text ". . . .

There is no question that funerary literature including the accompanying vignettes was part of the sacred papyri had by the prophet. There is no question that the Facsimiles contained in our Book of Abraham are part of the Book of Abraham. Funerary text goes hand in hand with funerary vignetts.

If John Gee disagrees with me then he is welcome to state the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and how it is that the great god Anubis is little more than a black slave.

Paul O

Hello Paul O.,

So, I am just making sure that my statement would be better read if it stated that: "The evidence PROVES that the Book of Breathings text ((also known as Shait en Sensen) "Breathing permit" for the priest Hor text), is indeed the very source from which the Book of Abraham came from." I do like that statement better. Thanks Paul O. for your insight here on this important and fascinating subject.