Evidence from Biblical scholars indicate Abraham is fiction

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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Nevo,

Passing all the firstborn through the fire is a well-known phrase from the Pentateuch (Numbers, I think) referring to the firstfruits Yahweh demanded from all the flocks and herds (as well as firstborn sons, who could be redeemed by substituting an animal). It therefore does not necessarily refer to human sacrifice.


Actually the Pentateuch does not require the firstfruits to be passed through the fire. It forbids children to be passed through the fire as the heathen do (Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10), and requires imperishable battle spoil to be passed through the fire as part of a ritual (and literal), cleansing process (Numbers 31:23, the passage you're thinking of). That's it for 'passing through the fire' in the Pentateuch.

A number of period texts seem to look down their noses at the practice of animal sacrifice; indeed, Jeremiah even goes so far as to say that YHWH did not command Israel's fathers concerning sacrifices and burnt offerings, and shortly thereafter implies that the scribes have altered the law (I think that's 7:22 and 8:8).


Yep, true.

Other prophets assert that sacrifice takes second place to a heart-orientation (Isaiah, the Psalms, Joel). Ezekiel 20 seems to resolve the problem by making sacrifice a divinely-instituted law, but explaining that it is designed as retribution for Israel's hardheartedness. Deuteronomy, of course, limits sacrifice to the cult-center.


Actually Deuteronomy recognised the legitimacy of non-cult center worship in the exilic context (Deuteronomy 30:1-6), a passage repeatedly appealed to in the exilic and post-exilic prophets to validate their teaching that non-cult center worship was legitimate.

To have human sacrifice mandated by the official YHWHistic cult in this era is extremely problematic, in my opinion.


It's certainly problematic trying to prove such a proposition.
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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Actually the Pentateuch does not require the firstfruits to be passed through the fire. It forbids children to be passed through the fire as the heathen do (Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10), and requires imperishable battle spoil to be passed through the fire as part of a ritual (and literal), cleansing process (Numbers 31:23, the passage you're thinking of). That's it for 'passing through the fire' in the Pentateuch.


Hi Fortigurn, I'm afraid I must disagree. According to Exodus 13,

"Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether man or animal."

...

"After the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites and gives it to you, as he promised on oath to you and your forefathers, 12 you are to give over to the LORD the first offspring of every womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock belong to the LORD. 13 Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons.

14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.' 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."


Many scholars believe this hearkens back to a time in Israel when human sacrifice was actually practiced, rather than merely theoretically required. That may be so, but where I differ with Nevo is his making this time as recent as the 8th century. There's positively no reason to believe that.

Actually Deuteronomy recognised the legitimacy of non-cult center worship in the exilic context (Deuteronomy 30:1-6), a passage repeatedly appealed to in the exilic and post-exilic prophets to validate their teaching that non-cult center worship was legitimate.


I don't see anything there that permits sacrifice away from the cult center.

-CK
_Nevo
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Post by _Nevo »

CaliforniaKid wrote:To have human sacrifice mandated by the official YHWHistic cult in this era is extremely problematic, in my opinion.


Is it? If Mark Smith is correct that child sacrifice belonged to "urban, royal religion" (Smith, Early History of God, 181), can we not then say that it was part of the "official cult"?

In any case, I think my original point stands. Human sacrifice was practiced in pre-exilic Israel (as the Bible itself amply attests), so there's no need to look to Israelite prehistory for the background to Genesis 22.
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Hi Nevo,

Urban, royal, YHWHistic religion? Or urban/royal worship of Molech and other gods?

-CK
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Actually the Pentateuch does not require the firstfruits to be passed through the fire. It forbids children to be passed through the fire as the heathen do (Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10), and requires imperishable battle spoil to be passed through the fire as part of a ritual (and literal), cleansing process (Numbers 31:23, the passage you're thinking of). That's it for 'passing through the fire' in the Pentateuch.


Hi Fortigurn, I'm afraid I must disagree. According to Exodus 13,

"Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether man or animal."

...

"After the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites and gives it to you, as he promised on oath to you and your forefathers, 12 you are to give over to the LORD the first offspring of every womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock belong to the LORD. 13 Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons.

14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.' 16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."


Many scholars believe this hearkens back to a time in Israel when human sacrifice was actually practiced, rather than merely theoretically required.


I'm afraid I see absolutely no command there to pass children through the fire, nor any commandment to kill children in sacrifice to God. Speculating that it 'hearkens back to a time in Israel when human sacrifice was actually practiced', isn't very useful.

That may be so, but where I differ with Nevo is his making this time as recent as the 8th century. There's positively no reason to believe that.


I agree with you there.

Actually Deuteronomy recognised the legitimacy of non-cult center worship in the exilic context (Deuteronomy 30:1-6), a passage repeatedly appealed to in the exilic and post-exilic prophets to validate their teaching that non-cult center worship was legitimate.


I don't see anything there that permits sacrifice away from the cult center.


I didn't talk about sacrifice, I said 'non-cult center worship'. Both Daniel and Nehemiah are depicted favourably for practicing non-cult center worship, and both of them are depicted as doing so on the basis of Deuteronomy 30:1-6.
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_Nevo
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Post by _Nevo »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Hi Nevo,

Urban, royal, YHWHistic religion? Or urban/royal worship of Molech and other gods?

-CK


In this case we're talking about Yahwistic religion. Smith seems to be thinking specifically of the royal cult of Jerusalem. Patrick Miller is a bit more vague. He speculates that "child sacrifice was incorporated into Yahwistic ritual" sometime in the 8th-7th centuries "by court and upper class figures" (Miller, Religion of Ancient Israel, 59).

Commenting on Jeremiah 7:30-32, Zevit notes that "[Jeremiah's] remarks about the temple indicate that whatever Jeremiah found objectionable was apparently not considered so by the sacerdotal authorities responsible for maintaining the temple, and not by royal authorities who were most likely responsible for policing the city of Jerusalem and its immediate environs." This presumably included the construction of bamot near the tophet, where child sacrifices took place.

Zevit continues: "The burning of children is alluded to in Ezek. 20:26 and Mic. 6:7. The ritual may have been comprehended as a way of fulfilling obligations concerning the first-born male prescribed in Exod. 22:28b-29; 13:1-2, 11-12 under certain circumstances. However, these 'first-born' laws may only lurk in the background of Jeremiah's condemnation. . . . It is clear, in any event, from Jeremiah's denial, that those who constructed bamot at the tophet and who burnt their children believed that YHWH had commanded such rites" (Zevit, Religions of Ancient Israel, 542).
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

It's certainly vague if he can't present any archaeological or even textual evidence.
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_Nevo
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Post by _Nevo »

Fortigurn wrote:
Nevo wrote:Smith renders the passage as follows: "Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the Lord."


On what basis does he do so? Can you provide any modern translation which gives this rendering?

Sure.
  • "Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD." (Ezek 20:25-26 RSV)
  • "And for this reason I gave them laws that were not good and judgements by which they could never live; and I polluted them with their own offerings, making them sacrifice every first-born son in order to fill them with revulsion, so that they would know that I am Yahweh." (Ezek 20:25-26 NJB)
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Nevo wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Nevo wrote:Smith renders the passage as follows: "Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the Lord."


On what basis does he do so? Can you provide any modern translation which gives this rendering?

Sure.
  • "Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD." (Ezek 20:25-26 RSV)
  • "And for this reason I gave them laws that were not good and judgements by which they could never live; and I polluted them with their own offerings, making them sacrifice every first-born son in order to fill them with revulsion, so that they would know that I am Yahweh." (Ezek 20:25-26 NJB)


Ok, so that's the RSV from 1952 (not exactly what I was asking for), and the NJB from 1985 (not exactly what I was asking for either, though a little closer). Is that it?
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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Here are several translations:

http://Bible.cc/ezekiel/20-25.htm
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