Terryl Givens re: excommunication

[_Analytics]

I don't think it's an unfair statement. The only people who know the story are those involved in the actual proceedings. This COULD give the accused carte blanche to say whatever they want without correction. To say they always lie would be extreme.

The only option is to release the minutes of the proceedings to the Press and allow Church Leaders to give interviews and discuss what happened. I don't think anyone wants that.

Sometimes, the person being excommunicated has brought a tape recorder so they can make their own record of the proceedings. The Church doesn't allow for that.

It's one thing to keep it secret to protect the privacy of the person being disciplined. It is another thing to keep it secret to protect the church.

[_rcrocket]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

How did this leak occur for Toscano and her husband?

rcrocket

[_rcrocket]

I don't think it's an unfair statement. The only people who know the story are those involved in the actual proceedings. This COULD give the accused carte blanche to say whatever they want without correction. To say they always lie would be extreme.

The only option is to release the minutes of the proceedings to the Press and allow Church Leaders to give interviews and discuss what happened. I don't think anyone wants that.

Sometimes, the person being excommunicated has brought a tape recorder so they can make their own record of the proceedings. The Church doesn't allow for that.

It's one thing to keep it secret to protect the privacy of the person being disciplined. It is another thing to keep it secret to protect the church.

So, the Church should publish the reasons for the excommunication?

An excommunicant is entitled to, and will receive, a letter stating the reasons for excommunication.

rcrocket

[_The Nehor]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

privaty
I'm reminded of the fable of the Bishopric:

A Bishopric was out fishing one Saturday morning in a motorboat. The engine died and they found themselves stranded.

It was cold and misty and the Second Counselor began chugging on a thermos. Eventually the other two noticed the liquid was a brownish color. When they inquired what it was he told them, "Everyone has their private vices. I like to drink coffee and I'm freezing."

A short time later the First Counselor pulled out a cigar and lit it. He defended himself by saying, "As he said, everyone has their private vices. I like to smoke cigars every so often and it's so cold I feel I should do it now."

The two Counselors noticed that with each revelation the Bishop smiled a little bit more. They then asked him, "C'mon Bishop, everyone has one. What's your private vice? Don't try to hide it. We know you have one."

The Bishop smiled even more and said, "You're right, I do have one. I love to gossip and I can't wait till we get back to shore."
____________________

Who committed the greatest sin?

:)

[_Mister Scratch]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

How did this leak occur for Toscano and her husband?

rcrocket

I don't know. Do you? Anyhow, my point is that it is misguided and incorrect for Prof. Givens to try and claim that this secrecy somehow exonerates the Church.

[_Mister Scratch]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

privaty
I'm reminded of the fable of the Bishopric:

A Bishopric was out fishing one Saturday morning in a motorboat. The engine died and they found themselves stranded.

It was cold and misty and the Second Counselor began chugging on a thermos. Eventually the other two noticed the liquid was a brownish color. When they inquired what it was he told them, "Everyone has their private vices. I like to drink coffee and I'm freezing."

A short time later the First Counselor pulled out a cigar and lit it. He defended himself by saying, "As he said, everyone has their private vices. I like to smoke cigars every so often and it's so cold I feel I should do it now."

The two Counselors noticed that with each revelation the Bishop smiled a little bit more. They then asked him, "C'mon Bishop, everyone has one. What's your private vice? Don't try to hide it. We know you have one."

The Bishop smiled even more and said, "You're right, I do have one. I love to gossip and I can't wait till we get back to shore."
____________________

Who committed the greatest sin?

:)

If the Bishop follows through and gossips, then he is the one guilty of the greatest sin. I say this because it is the Bishop who has the most authority and power.

[_The Nehor]

If the Bishop follows through and gossips, then he is the one guilty of the greatest sin. I say this because it is the Bishop who has the most authority and power.

I would say it has nothing to do with his position. His sin is just much more damaging. I would say the same thing if the gossiper were the Second Counselor.

[_Seven]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

How did this leak occur for Toscano and her husband?

rcrocket

There are some stories in my extended family history that I will only share the general details of, but involved a Stake President leaking very personal information about sins this family member had confessed and repented of. This information was requested by his future in laws and they wanted to know any dirt on him they could get to make sure he was worthy of their daughter. He had converted to the church and was a great missionary but had pre-marital sex as a teenager and had been in juvenille hall before his conversion. (had a very rough childhood) He was devastated that this SP revealed this information to her parents. It ruined his relationship with the inlaws and caused some damage to his support of church leaders the rest of his life.

Leaks happen, and gossip is hard for many to resist. Which is why I have always had trouble with how the church handles confessions of sins.

[_rcrocket]

Prof. Givens can claim that the Church never reveals its side of the story, but the fact of the matter is that people talk. (Or 'gossip'?) The information often gets leaked, one way or the other, and so once again we find institutionalized Church secrecy causing yet another problem.

How did this leak occur for Toscano and her husband?

rcrocket

I don't know. Do you? Anyhow, my point is that it is misguided and incorrect for Prof. Givens to try and claim that this secrecy somehow exonerates the Church.

How is it that you can say, when we are discussion Margaret Toscano's excommunication, that the Church leaks that stuff "often" but you have no information about Ms. Toscano? There is no apparent evidence for your assertion.

rcrocket

[_Mister Scratch]

How is it that you can say, when we are discussion Margaret Toscano's excommunication, that the Church leaks that stuff "often" but you have no information about Ms. Toscano? There is no apparent evidence for your assertion.

rcrocket

Nowhere did I say the Church leaks private material "often." I said that it was ill-advised for Prof. Givens to try and defend the Church on the basis of its own ecclesiastical disciplinary secrecy.