Have you ever had any experiences with manipulating Mormons

[Guest]

Deleted

[_Some Schmo]

The Mormon missionaries used to come to my door regularly and uninvited even though I'd left the church 19 years prior. It didn't really bother me much personally, but it really annoyed my wife, and that would annoy me.

When they came, I would smile and look them in the eye and tell them we weren't interested. I told them on multiple occasions that we'd appreciate them not coming by any more. I've never been intimidated by them. They're freaking teenagers, for god's sake! But I didn't like the way they affected my wife, so eventually, I decided that the only way I'd get them to leave us the hell alone was to write up a resignation letter. I actually had a lot of fun with that. It turned out to be a manifesto of my core beliefs. I printed it up, stuck it in an envelop and left it by the front door, and the next time they came by, I handed it to them and said, "Hey man, could you give this to your bishop? Thanks man, I really appreciate it" and I closed the door.

The letter read:

To Whom This Causes Concern,

I’m tired of people from your church stopping by. Does anyone down there realize that I haven’t been to church in over 19 years? I have to admit that I’m a little pissed off that I even have to write this letter because you guys can’t accept the multiple verbal requests from both my wife and me to leave us alone. So now, I have to actually formally resign? Well, alright. You asked for it. Here’s my resignation letter.

Usually, when people write their resignation letters from the church, they are very careful to make sure they send the message that they want out strictly for philosophical reasons, and not because they want to sin, but I don’t care if you think I want to sin. Clearly, you people will believe some of the most outrageous ideas imaginable, so you’ll believe what you want about me too (like I’m convertible). If it helps you to expedite removing my name from the records, you can believe what you want.

Here, let me help you…

• I believe in thinking for myself. I believe that if you live your life by what other people say, you are a lazy child who isn’t willing to exert the effort of asking the hard questions of yourself. If you don’t bother to come up with your own philosophy and decide that a hand-me-down one is good enough for you, then you deserve what you get. There’s no such thing as a “general authority” on the mysteries of this world and the universe, and anyone calling themselves that is a scam artist.

• I believe in sex before marriage. I’ve fornicated with around two dozen women in my life, and it was great. I wouldn’t trade the experience for the world. Not having sex with your potential partner before you marry them is like a football team using their number one draft pick on a player they’ve never scouted. Kind of dumb, don’t you think?

• I believe in masturbation. I’m married and I still occasionally do it, usually if my wife is indisposed for whatever reason. I would encourage every male from the age of 13 to start fondling themselves. It’s better than going crazy and believe me, sexual repression will make you do crazy things.

• I believe in watching football on Sunday, going to restaurants, shopping, going swimming… basically doing anything other than stepping inside a church. Why waste a perfectly good day off? I also believe in working on Sunday, if it means supporting your family (or simply if your job requires it).

• I believe that coffee might just be about the best damn drink ever created. I drink several cups a day. I don't drink alcohol much, but that's for health reasons, not religious ones. Sometimes, I like to really tie one on (which means "drink a lot of alcohol"). I also think drugs, prostitution, and gambling should all be legalized and moderated by the government like alcohol is. Can you imagine how quickly we could pay down the national debt with all that new tax revenue? And what's the big deal about smoking a joint or paying for sex, anyway?

• I believe family is more important than church is (more important than anything, in fact). I know you guys think you believe that, but I actually live as though I believe it rather than just paying the idea lip service.

• I believe in investing 10% of your income in yourself, not some dubious organization. Are you going to take care of me when I retire, or is that up to me?

• I believe in exposing the church for the sham it is. I regularly write and post what could be considered anti-Mormon literature on the Internet (including this letter), and some of it is pretty good, if I do say so myself.

• I believe the concept of faith is a device used by religions to keep members in control. “Have faith or you suck at being religious” is probably the biggest scam perpetrated on the human race in history simply because it’s used to retain paying church members.

• I believe the Bible to be the most popular work of fiction in history. Who ever heard of talking snakes or people waking up from the dead? I wonder if Stephen King’s books will be as popular in 2000 years. It’s the same sort of subject matter. And don’t get me started on the Book of Mormon.

• I believe Joe Smith was a murderous, lying, womanizing, statutory rapist. I believe him to be as divine and righteous as Charles Manson, or more appropriately, Hitler. The ripple effect of lives affected and pain perpetrated by each man’s acts are about the same.

• I believe Jesus was probably a fairly decent guy who’s reputation span out of control (that is, if he lived at all). He was god’s son? His mother was a virgin? HAHAHAHA!!! Good one. One thing is for sure; he’s a little late for his second coming, isn’t he? Just what kind of messiah is late? If I can’t rely on him to be on time, it makes me nervous about relying on him for my salvation.

• I believe that swearing is a great emotional release. Sometimes, I like to f****** swear. See what I mean? Call me crazy, but I think they’re just words.

• I believe there might be some kind of life after death, but I highly doubt that what we do in this lifetime has much bearing on what happens there. If all of eternity is influenced by such a short time span, something is definitely out of whack. I would think that a creator smart enough to do all this would enable a more reasonable ratio of deeds to rewards.

• I believe that to claim that you know anything for certain is the same as saying, “I’m an ignorant fool.” Nobody knows anything for sure. Telling me you know god lives makes me think you’ve suffered a serious blow to the head, because you must be seeing things. We all have a lot of ideas and beliefs, and some are better than others, but as soon as you move into the “I know” territory, you’ve stepped off your rocker. Let me remind you that only 500 years ago, everyone “knew” the Earth was flat.

• And finally, I believe god is something people believe in because they’re afraid to rely on themselves. I think it’s about escaping maturity. Same thing with the “devil,” whom I believe to be the biggest scapegoat ever created (“The devil made me do it…” Sheesh! What ever happened to personal responsibility?) I think it’s a mental disorder. And I feel superior for thinking it, too. It’s great for my ego.

• Oh, one other thing: I have absolutely no intention to ever attend any church again. I believe the root of all evil is organized religion, and have no idea how the concept of religion got mixed up and confused with spirituality. So, you couldn’t convert me for a billion dollars. Just wanted to make sure you understood that. There’s no need to call me to confirm since I won’t be changing my mind about this (my wife usually hangs up on Mormons anyway, so you might have trouble getting through).

Now… does any of this excuse me from having to put up with the annoying missionary drop-bys I keep getting? I've never cared about my name being on the LDS records until recently (now that I keep getting the drop-bys suddenly), because like I said before, I don't care what people from the church think. In fact, right now, I imagine you dismissing all this as coming from someone who’s possessed by the devil. If so, great! That’s kind of amusing to me, actually. It would do no good to assure you that these are all my thoughts (I like to take responsibility for the thoughts that pop into my head – what a concept, huh?), so I won’t try.

I would like to stop being bothered by uninvited visitors, so if that means you have to take my name off your records to get a clue, do it. If it means you feel the need to excommunicate me, great! Whatever you do, could you make it snappy? Why continue to waste the resources of your missionaries on guys like me who look down on people so easily influenced as members of the LDS church? Have you forgotten that they have paid for their mission with their own money? Do you feel good about wasting what should be their collage savings?

You can consider this my official resignation from time and resource wasting, dogmatic submission… er, I mean… being a Mormon.

Sincerely,

(Schmo)

That was the last time I was ever bother by the missionries.

[_Doctor Steuss]

I manipulate my Mormon sometimes. But I make sure to repent afterwards.

[_Some Schmo]

by the way, some of my beliefs have changed since I wrote that a few years ago (I'm no longer an agnostic, for instance, but completely atheist), I doubt that Jesus actually lived, that spirituality is something apart from mentality, and a few other details, but most of it still applies.

[_Sethbag]

Some Schmo, that was hilarious. I literally almost choked on my herbal tea when I got to the premarital sex and masturbation lines. Too funny man. I do think it was a bit over the top to compare Joseph Smith with Hitler, but I will agree that if he did in fact make it all up, his fraud has now been perpetrated on millions of people. There's a difference though between setting up real concentration camps and killing millions of people and just perpetrating a mind job on millions of people. Other than, say, the Fancher Party and a few people who became aquainted with Bill Hickman and Porter Rockwell in ways they'd have preferred not to, Mormonism isn't really anything like Hitler's deeds at all. Some good comes from the church, but I attribute almost all of that good to the good intentions of millions of members over the last 170 years, trying to make lemonade from the lemon of Joseph Smith's fraud.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

by the way, some of my beliefs have changed since I wrote that a few years ago (I'm no longer an agnostic, for instance, but completely atheist), I doubt that Jesus actually lived, that spirituality is something apart from mentality, and a few other details, but most of it still applies.

That's a dynamite letter.

Sunday, I had the privilege of listening in on part of my sister's mother's day call from missionary daughter. Oh, my! She's a great missionary! And full of advice for manipulating people into the church (invite them to dinner with the missionaries, don't talk about church until the end when the missionaries read a scripture and say a prayer, so the "marks" learn to trust you and feel comfortable before you offer discussions, etc.) I was grossed out. They could have been talking about Amway just as well, which will probably be my little niece's next career because she's really a good sales person -- 10 baptisms so far!!

[_Some Schmo]

I do think it was a bit over the top to compare Joseph Smith with Hitler, but I will agree that if he did in fact make it all up, his fraud has now been perpetrated on millions of people. There's a difference though between setting up real concentration camps and killing millions of people and just perpetrating a mind job on millions of people. Other than, say, the Fancher Party and a few people who became aquainted with Bill Hickman and Porter Rockwell in ways they'd have preferred not to, Mormonism isn't really anything like Hitler's deeds at all. Some good comes from the church, but I attribute almost all of that good to the good intentions of millions of members over the last 170 years, trying to make lemonade from the lemon of Joseph Smith's fraud.

Oh, I know. A lot of that was stated the way it was to emphasize a point. Luckily, Godwin's Law doesn't apply when it comes to resignation letters.

:D

[_wenglund]

Maybe it is just me, but I haven't found Machiavellianism to be an admirable quality for one's character--certainly not something to gloat about, though it may lend itself to smugness and a false sense of superiority.

Granted, through it one may derive momentary and superficial benefits. However, from what I have seen, in the long run it tends to diminish all parties concerned, though the Machiavellian more than others.

As an healthy and functional alternative, may I suggest doing random acts of kindness and charity--things that edify and benefit longterm all parties concerned?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Coggins7]

Last night the missionaries stopped by – I was already standing in front of the window when they pulled up so I couldn’t ignore them like last time. I decided to let them in and control the conversation. I waited until my wife came out and let her talk with them to practice her English (she’s not American). The more I got thinking about it, the more I realized that Mormon behavior is so predictable and superficial.

The term for this is "bigotry", otherwise known as "prejudice".

I knew the answers they would say before they answered them, like “what is priesthood? Priesthood is the authority of…” and I knew that they would agree to everything that we said – that is how Mormons manipulate people into liking them and eventually being baptized. Even when my wife was talking about her Buddhist beliefs of demons and Buddhist ritual exorcism they were smiling, nodding and saying “yes, of course!”

This is probably because they know very little about Buddhist beliefs and would not want to insult her by presuming to criticize them. Indeed, they probably know as little about Buddhism as you know about LDS culture generally.

As a missionary I was taught the “Commitment Pattern” and other psychological manipulation tools. Why don’t you fight fire with fire and use it on them?

Really, this isn't even a nice try.

I just wanted to talk about normal “worldly stuff” so I kept on talking about movies. The missionaries talked for hours about movies. Perfect! Missionaries have to be nice and will always give you face so it’s perfect for my wife to practice her English. Why pay money for a teacher when you can have people come to your home and talk to you? The key lies in controlling the conversation.

So, you're really nothing but a tendentious, deceptive manipulator who wears masks when relating to others to cover your real agenda. How then, can I trust the sincerity of anything you say here?

I have read a lot of posts here about people wanting to “flee” “escape” from Mormonism. People use the word “stalked” and “followed” and “harassed’ to describe their run-ins with the Mormons, but I always wonder: why do people feel this way? (I always imagine a ‘Night of the Living Dead’ like scene – zombie Mormons surround an inactive’s house and groan and moan about “your child isn’t going to Primary” or “your Satanic pirate ancestor hasn’t had his temple work done yet!” while those inside save their bullets to kill themselves so even if the Mormon cult will be able to suck the life out of their bodies, they won’t be able to molest their minds)

Uh huh...

But I think a person who is insecure and feels a lack of control in their life will feel annoyed and intimated by Mormon social behavior. Of course Mormons are annoying persistent but why can’t you TAKE advantage of that?? Be confident and stand up for yourself in a polite but firm way.

Mormon social behavior? Uh huh...

For example, when I lived in China I was always invited out to eat. At first I felt flattered and popular until I figured out (like every expat) that everybody only wanted me to teach their kids English (for free of course), translate documents for them (my Chinese is good) and do business with them. Every meal inevitably was followed by a direct commitment: for example, one of my Shaolin monk acquaintances kept inviting me out to eat. I finally consented and we went to a barbeque restaurant. At the end of the awkward meal he handed a book to me and said “that’s the book I wrote on martial arts – thanks for translating it for me!” (It didn’t happen! I just took it, smiled and ignored him)

If you could get me that monk's book, I'd love to see it. I don't have anything of that kind here. The best I've got are old manuals written in Hong Kong back in the sixties or seventies that are excellent...but all in Chinese. Maybe I could come over and you could translate those for me after your wife clears all the demons from the room (what was your firecracker bill last year?)

Snip more verbiage...

Social psychology teaches that individuals in society are trained to be “good citizens” and obey authority (Milgram, Zimbardo, etc). Mormons, like most unscrupulous organizations, realize this and take advantage of it. The power of persuasion and manipulation is very potent and by utilizing these principles you can get what you want. Mormons force their beliefs upon others and try to commit people to following their weird way of life. I think people should just refuse them and do so in a confident and positive manner. What else can they do? They will have to smile and be nice as long as you are smiling and being nice. And take advantage of their manipulation (“sure, move me into my new apartment”) while continuing to stay in contact with them (which gives them hope)

I wonder (all humor aside for the moment, as difficult as that may be in practice), if you'd like to actually formulate a serious, philosophically critical argument demonstrating that anything you're saying here about Mormons and Mormon culture should be remotely taken seriously?

So, how else can you control Mormons? Do you think Mormon behavior is predictable? Have you ever had any experiences with manipulating Mormons just like they manipulated you?

Hint: You have conflated manipulation with persuasion, an intellectual fatal exception when trying to understand the beliefs of others and their desires to convince you of their validity. If you do not understand the difference between evangelism, in the religious sense, and the kind of psychological manipulation demonstrated in Milgram's experiments, then your own arguments here have no basis upon which I should take them as anything other then an attempt at the very intellectual and emotional deception you elucidate above. You have dug yourself a deep and greasy philosophical hole here. I'll be watching to see if you can get out of it.

[_Coggins7]

Homer posted the following manifesto containing a series of interesting claims about what he appears to believe is a belief system. Let's take a closer critical look at the implications of these claims both as individual claims and as a systemic whole.

• I believe in thinking for myself. I believe that if you live your life by what other people say, you are a lazy child who isn’t willing to exert the effort of asking the hard questions of yourself. If you don’t bother to come up with your own philosophy and decide that a hand-me-down one is good enough for you, then you deserve what you get. There’s no such thing as a “general authority” on the mysteries of this world and the universe, and anyone calling themselves that is a scam artist.

Just about everyone believes in thinking for themselves as a value. Whether this is actually achieved or not, including in Schmo's case, is altogether another question. Schmo apparently believes this claimed value sets him of somehow from Mormons and others, but of course, this could be nothing more than a persona conceit. Indeed, much of the rest of the text seems to confirm that observation.

• I believe in sex before marriage. I’ve fornicated with around two dozen women in my life, and it was great. I wouldn’t trade the experience for the world. Not having sex with your potential partner before you marry them is like a football team using their number one draft pick on a player they’ve never scouted. Kind of dumb, don’t you think?

This is hoary old early seventies sexual revolution boilerplate and is hardly worth responding to. Premarital sex has zero to do with sexual compatibility after marriage. The key to that is one's general emotional and psychological maturity in a much broader sense, and hence sensitivity to the needs of the other...something Schmo very obviously may have lacked during his youthful days of wine and roses.

• I believe in masturbation. I’m married and I still occasionally do it, usually if my wife is indisposed for whatever reason. I would encourage every male from the age of 13 to start fondling themselves. It’s better than going crazy and believe me, sexual repression will make you do crazy things.

More textbook Hefneresque boilerplate that has no basis in reality. From the age of 13? Nice way to generate sexual addiction, and no one...except perhaps the most far gone sex addicts, have ever gone crazy from celibacy before marriage or from periods of abstinence during. Do I detect a whiff of the Peter Pan syndrome here?

• I believe in watching football on Sunday, going to restaurants, shopping, going swimming… basically doing anything other than stepping inside a church. Why waste a perfectly good day off? I also believe in working on Sunday, if it means supporting your family (or simply if your job requires it).

• I believe that coffee might just be about the best damn drink ever created. I drink several cups a day. I don't drink alcohol much, but that's for health reasons, not religious ones. Sometimes, I like to really tie one on (which means "drink a lot of alcohol"). I also think drugs, prostitution, and gambling should all be legalized and moderated by the government like alcohol is. Can you imagine how quickly we could pay down the national debt with all that new tax revenue? And what's the big deal about smoking a joint or paying for sex, anyway?

Radical libertarian secularism. OK, I see. In actuality, a serious libertarian doesn't want the government sticking is big, fat fingers into much of anything and "moderating" (he means "regulating") them. Allowing government to control and regulate vices like gambling (which it already does), drug use, and prostitution, does nothing more than make the state a hustler, and pimp, and a dealer, and creates an incentive within the government to encourage these practices (government programs based on the taxing of cigarettes require...cigarette smokers, and the more, the better). What's the big deal about getting high and exploiting youg runaways from abusive homes? Maybe we should ask Schmo this question when he's out of puberty.

• I believe family is more important than church is (more important than anything, in fact). I know you guys think you believe that, but I actually live as though I believe it rather than just paying the idea lip service.

From a LDS perspective, this statement is bizarre. Its also interesting to note that the sentiment above is incompatible, both on a personal and societal scale with value 2, 3, and much of 5. Clearly, rampant sexual promiscuity, masturbation (and the almost always attendant porn) within a married relationship, the psychological attitudes toward sexuality and woman generally fostered by this general sexual ethos, drug use, and the sexual exploitation of females for and with money is not conducive to a civil, moral, stable social order nor to a morally mature personal life and relation to others.

• I believe in investing 10% of your income in yourself, not some dubious organization. Are you going to take care of me when I retire, or is that up to me?

• I believe in exposing the church for the sham it is. I regularly write and post what could be considered anti-Mormon literature on the Internet (including this letter), and some of it is pretty good, if I do say so myself.

• I believe the concept of faith is a device used by religions to keep members in control. “Have faith or you suck at being religious” is probably the biggest scam perpetrated on the human race in history simply because it’s used to retain paying church members.

This last item is classic Korihorism. The entire edifice of Gospel thought and doctrine is a system of oppression designed to keep everyone from having a good time. My initial reaction to this is that it is a self serving rationalization that no truly intellectually mature individual really believes. It does serve a purpose, however, in allowing the circumvention of the real reasons for personal apostasy (which Schmo has articulated well here, by the way).

• I believe the Bible to be the most popular work of fiction in history. Who ever heard of talking snakes or people waking up from the dead? I wonder if Stephen King’s books will be as popular in 2000 years. It’s the same sort of subject matter. And don’t get me started on the Book of Mormon.

I won't. That would be like asking Sean Penn to write a graduate thesis on the history of the Middle East.

• I believe Joe Smith was a murderous, lying, womanizing, statutory rapist. I believe him to be as divine and righteous as Charles Manson, or more appropriately, Hitler. The ripple effect of lives affected and pain perpetrated by each man’s acts are about the same.

I don't believe any of those things, nor do I believe there's a dime's worth of compelling evidence to support them. I do believe that the person who wrote this is an emotionally and psychologically immature, self focused hedonist of very limited intellectual depth who who uses the phrase "thinking for myself" as a club to beat those with whom he disagrees but of which he has very little real understanding.


•

I believe Jesus was probably a fairly decent guy who’s reputation span out of control (that is, if he lived at all). He was god’s son? His mother was a virgin? HAHAHAHA!!! Good one. One thing is for sure; he’s a little late for his second coming, isn’t he? Just what kind of messiah is late? If I can’t rely on him to be on time, it makes me nervous about relying on him for my salvation.

• I believe that swearing is a great emotional release. Sometimes, I like to f****** swear. See what I mean? Call me crazy, but I think they’re just words.

• I believe there might be some kind of life after death, but I highly doubt that what we do in this lifetime has much bearing on what happens there. If all of eternity is influenced by such a short time span, something is definitely out of whack. I would think that a creator smart enough to do all this would enable a more reasonable ratio of deeds to rewards.

• I believe that to claim that you know anything for certain is the same as saying, “I’m an ignorant fool.” Nobody knows anything for sure. Telling me you know god lives makes me think you’ve suffered a serious blow to the head, because you must be seeing things. We all have a lot of ideas and beliefs, and some are better than others, but as soon as you move into the “I know” territory, you’ve stepped off your rocker. Let me remind you that only 500 years ago, everyone “knew” the Earth was flat.

The epistemological problem with this last point is pretty straightforward. Schmo has no idea whatever, and no way to ascertain, what others "know" or don't know, within their own mental universe, nor the certainly with which they know. All he has are his own assumed epistemological limitations, which he would like to impose upon everyone else (upon what basis, he does not say). He is in a perceptual box canyon and appears to believe that everyone else is as well. Should frogs in wells make lofty pronouncements to butterflies and eagles? Well we might ask. Well might we ask if the frog should even be running his mouth about reality to the earth worm, who can at least move around a bit and get some better bearings on his environment (and peek through the dirt for a look at the moon now and then to boot).

• And finally, I believe god is something people believe in because they’re afraid to rely on themselves. I think it’s about escaping maturity. Same thing with the “devil,” whom I believe to be the biggest scapegoat ever created (“The devil made me do it…” Sheesh! What ever happened to personal responsibility?) I think it’s a mental disorder. And I feel superior for thinking it, too. It’s great for my ego.

Here we go. Madalyn Murry O' Hare pop Atheist can't. Discretion would have been the better part of valor in your parlor game of "thinking for yourself" my friend.

• Oh, one other thing: I have absolutely no intention to ever attend any church again. I believe the root of all evil is organized religion, and have no idea how the concept of religion got mixed up and confused with spirituality. So, you couldn’t convert me for a billion dollars. Just wanted to make sure you understood that. There’s no need to call me to confirm since I won’t be changing my mind about this (my wife usually hangs up on Mormons anyway, so you might have trouble getting through).

A person who believes in promiscuous premarital sex, recreational drug use, gambling, prostitution, swearing, masturbating in the bathroom when his wife has a headache, who mocks and jeers at the beliefs of others about Christ, and very conveniently believes that nothing he does here has any bearing on any potential life after this one, Now begins to speak to us about...spirituality?

What might someone who "thinks for themselves" make of all this, I wonder?