Chalk Up Another MAD-influenced Apostasy

[_Selah]

I would never refer someone to FAIR/MAD if they wanted to keep their testimony. ~dancer~

I totally agree.

[_Yong Xi]

My experience with apologetics is that if one is reasonably founded in the scriptures, and accept the scriptures as a moral basis upon which to base judgments, it is easy to see that every published thing Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did has analogues in the sacred writ. They acted exactly as prophets of old; they had strengths; they had weaknesses.

Like many, I reject the scriptures. I believe there are sound moral teachings in the scriptures of which many I do accept. However, I reject the supernatural which renders the scriptures as myth for me.

I suppose you can make a case for supporting the writings/teachings of Joseph Smith and BY in the scriptures (I assume you mean Bible), particularly if that is what you are looking for. The Bible is rich in content. It is not difficult to find relationships between Mormon doctrine and biblical content.

The stone-throwers (read: Mormondiscussions and RFM) have their day and fame and then are lost in the streams of history

Yes, all things go away. Perhaps this will be the case with Christianity, Mormonism and the human race. The universe is a volatile place.

But, if you have problems with the scriptures, or have problems with a belief in the miracle of Jesus Christ, its going to be hard to accept the notion that Joseph Smith is a prophet. And, I know I'll get a lot of heat for this, but many folks who apostacize also have problems with the Church's strict moral code -- the find it personally repugnant or they cannot comply.

Obviously, belief in Joseph Smith's claim to divine communion is predicated on belief in the supernatural. Many people have problems with this and it is not related to the issue of "morality". I personally, never have had a problem with the church's moral code (which I assume you define primarily as WOW and chastity). It was never in my nature to experiment.

I think most leave the church for mere lack of belief and not a moral failing. It is hard for believers to accept that "apostates" just don't believe. It is beyond believer's comprehension, because, after all, the Church is true. How can it not be true, when it is true?

This particular Board is many times entertaining. Pathetic self-centered lives are replayed in anonymity and hypocrisy rules the roost. Nary a trace of Christianity in the lot of you; even GIMR, the apparent divinity student, has little truck with any of the moral imperatives of the Gospel.

Pretty unfair. You are making broad generalizations. In private, I think you would find that most posters here lead pretty good lives. I would say the same about LDS in general. Things may get heated here at times, but it is not primarily the result of moral corruption. Like you, many are here for entertainment.

The only ones I really respect on this Board are the self-professed atheists or non-believers who live their lives that way and seek to prove the absurdity of any religion, be it LDS or anything else. .

I consider myself atheist but do not live my life to prove the absurdity of religion.

The rest of you are, well, pathetic. Carry on; it helps me justify being judgmental.

Religion seems to need an enemy to survive. It looks as though you have found some.

And, go ahead and complain about my posts to my partnership and my stake president as some of you have threatened to do.
rcrocket

I for one, would never do that (I just don't care). It just doesn't matter that much. Life is too short.

I wear my faith like a martyr.

Religious zeal does frighten me.

[_moksha]

This particular Board is many times entertaining. Pathetic self-centered lives are replayed in anonymity and hypocrisy rules the roost. Nary a trace of Christianity in the lot of you; even GIMR, the apparent divinity student, has little truck with any of the moral imperatives of the Gospel.

Wow, that is fairly incendiary. You must have been quite angry as you wrote that.

The only ones I really respect on this Board are the self-professed atheists or non-believers who live their lives that way and seek to prove the absurdity of any religion, be it LDS or anything else.

Atheists and non-believers can have their points. I think I understand your point in wanting them to point out the absurdity of religion. By doing so, it helps to deflate everyone's truth claim, and shows us believers that what truly matters is our will to believe and that our commonality is displaying our humanity by doing so. Very Zen-like!

The rest of you are, well, pathetic. Carry on; it helps me justify being judgmental.

I have heard it said that everyone needs someone to look down upon. If you must be judgmental and it helps you to assign your discomfort for being so to others, then go for it. In your prayers, you can add the explanation that they made you do it.

And, go ahead and complain about my posts to my partnership and my stake president as some of you have threatened to do.
rcrocket

If someone did this, it was a dastardly deed. But fear not, your partnership will view the use of aggressive posturing as a mark of a good lawyer. They should lay off the Stake President.

I wear my faith like a martyr.

Do you also have two documented miracles to your credit?

[_Gazelam]

This particular Board is many times entertaining. Pathetic self-centered lives are replayed in anonymity and hypocrisy rules the roost. Nary a trace of Christianity in the lot of you; even GIMR, the apparent divinity student, has little truck with any of the moral imperatives of the Gospel.

Attaboy. Insult everyone on the board and all posts they have made here. That'll get you some traction with people respecting your opinions.

[_Blixa]

That really is a ridiculous statement---the one Gaz is quoting, not the one Gaz is making : )

My own responses would be along the lines of Yong Xi's. There are interesting/worthwhile concepts and ideas in many systems of thought and I can appreciate them without necessarily buying into the whole package. Like Yong Xi, I part company with "religion" over the issue of the supernatural, but that doesn't mean I'm spending my life trying to show that all belielf is stupid and worthless even though I am an atheist. I will criticize those specific beliefs and doctrines I find oppressive and harmful to humanity. At that same time, I recognize that many things I don't necessarily believe in can be helpful and even necessary to others.

My respect for posters on this board probably has less to do with any litmus-test of belief vs. nonbelief and more to do with how and why individual posters make the arguments they do.

[_Runtu]

You can think what you like of all of us, Bob. We're doing the best we can, and I suspect you are too. Like you, I find people's reactions to the church and to exmormons interesting and entertaining. In the end, that's all we can do.

Best to you.

[_Seven]

But, if you have problems with the scriptures, or have problems with a belief in the miracle of Jesus Christ, its going to be hard to accept the notion that Joseph Smith is a prophet.

I personally don't have problems with the scriptures. I have accepted that they were written and changed by many men over time and heavily influenced by their culture when I read something that goes against my God given consience. Thankfully, God didn't write every word in it.

I also have no problem with the miracle of Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior.

I do have trouble with Joseph Smith claiming God commanded him to have sexual relations with multiple women (as an already married man who covenanted to be faithful to Emma) in the name of "Celestial Marriage." I also have trouble with his arrogance at crowning himself king of the earth, the next "Mohammed", doing more for mankind second to Jesus, his arrest for treasure hunting with a seer stone, false prophecies, fraudulent Book of Abraham translation. etc.
Where do you draw a moral line on what is of God?

And, I know I'll get a lot of heat for this, but ]many folks who apostacize also have problems with the Church's strict moral code -- the find it personally repugnant or they cannot comply.

I would like to know why you believe this. How many apostates have you spoken on this topic with? It's always disappointing to me how some people attack others characters for having different beliefs on God and his moral laws. Do you believe that those who feel betrayed by the church when learning church history and go to FAIR/FARMS/MAD for help, are only there because they secretly hate the church's moral code? Do you believe they are liars when they discuss the struggle to accept Joseph Smith taking married women as his new wives? or the lack of archelogical evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon? Book of Abraham? Eternal law of LDS polygamy for exaltation? Racism to blacks?
Are all these apostates liars when they struggle to keep faith over the many changes to church history and doctrine? You believe most apostates can't live the moral code? If you really believe this, I recommend spending more time talking with apostates and listening to their experiences.

I have never found the gospel of Jesus Christ repugnant and I still follow the same moral laws I did as an active member, only now I am less judgemental of those who have different beliefs than me. I love the commandments of chastity, doing unto others, integrity,service to my fellow brothers and sisters, etc. I still follow the Word of Wisdom.
These very commandments that I cherish are what led me out of the church. I can't believe in the law of chastity and adultery, but then believe it's Godly for a spouse to have orgasms with multiple women via 132. I can't believe in being honest, but then support white washing of Prophets teachings or trying to silence members on history. I can't love my neighbor if I believe that blacks were less valiant in the pre existence and deserve their earthly trials. I can't believe in "do unto others" if I support the church with any of the above.

I also wouldn't support slavery, stoning people to death, incest, and murdering children, women, and men in the name of religion, but you could find justification for all these acts as "Godly" in the Old Testament. I live by my conscience ,which is the Spirit of God directing me in what is right and wrong.

[_Dr. Shades]

And, I know I'll get a lot of heat for this, but many folks who apostacize also have problems with the Church's strict moral code -- the find it personally repugnant or they cannot comply.

Joseph Smith had problems with the church's strict moral code, too. Just ask Helen Mar Kimball.

[_beastie]

I wear my faith like a martyr.

That must be deliciously titillating for you.

[_Runtu]

And, I know I'll get a lot of heat for this, but many folks who apostacize also have problems with the Church's strict moral code -- the find it personally repugnant or they cannot comply.

Joseph Smith had problems with the church's strict moral code, too. Just ask Helen Mar Kimball.

That is funny, isn't it? I have no problem whatsoever with the church's strict moral code. I've never violated that code and don't plan to. But, yeah, I had a problem with the way Joseph Smith created a moral code unto himself that applied to no one else. I find that personally repugnant indeed. Interesting how folks who rationalize Joseph's behavior feel free to label the rest of us moral reprobates.