Phelps is one hateful dude

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_Gazelam
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Celestial Marriage

Post by _Gazelam »

I had a large number of things thrown at me here, so I'm just going to answer everything here in general.

I understand that Girls can be homosexual also. My comment was meant to be inflamatory in order to get people to understand that homosexuality is a perversion. I could have said something just as vile regarding Lesbians, but chose not to.

Joseph F. Smith said:
The first marriage on record appertaining to this earth was solemnized by the Almighty. The first couple married were immortal beings - Adam and Eve, our first parents - before they had partaken of the forbidden fruit and become subject to the penalty of death. Marriage, as then understood, could not have been what it is now popularly supposed to be by the so-called Christian world. Then the marriage vow was made and the ceremony was performed by immortal or celestial beings, with no reference to death or to a time when that sacred and holy union should cease. - May 19, 1874


The Father himself is married, as is Jesus Christ. That is the nature of God, that is how he bears the name of Father. There could not be a Father without a Mother at his side. It is called Eternal life because it is only in this enviorment that life continues. Outside of the realm of the Celestial kingdom, life does not continue, the creative process ceases. Outside of the Celestial Kingdom there is no progression through ones posterity, and posterity is the only possesion we have in the world to come.

Homosexuality is the breaking of the Law of Chastity. It is more vulgar than normal in that it is clearly seen as a double violation because along with the Law of God they are also breaking social laws of the community. Any person that is such a slave to the desires of the flesh that they are willing to break such laws can in no way inherit the kingdom of God.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

But where does that leave us, Gaz?

Gaz: "My comment was meant to be inflamatory in order to get people to understand that homosexuality is a perversion."

How did it accomplish that? All it told me was that you thought it was a perversion and based on how you described things, it struck and still strikes me that yours is an opinion borne of ignorance. Ignorance of history and ignorance of personal experience with the wide range of people, including myself, who would be classified as "perverts" under such general and vague classificiation.

Gaz:

"I could have said something just as vile regarding Lesbians, but chose not to."

Why? Is it because gay men bother you more? Why is that?

Gaz:

"Outside of the Celestial Kingdom there is no progression through ones posterity, and posterity is the only possesion we have in the world to come."

This explains to me the entirely ahistorical slant of your posts---in some sense, belief in the End of History makes historical knowledge impossible. At least that thought just occured to me, and I have to thank you for helping me see this. I'll have to work this idea out some more, but I think it may just be a significant concept for my current project, which among other things takes up the literary genre of Historical Fiction. (And truthfully, this may not be such a big insight, I'll need to see if this point is made by other critical philosophers of religion/christianity.)

Gaz:

"Homosexuality is the breaking of the Law of Chastity."

Kind of a Catch-22 if you aren't allowed to marry in the first place...

Gaz:

"It is more vulgar than normal in that it is clearly seen as a double violation because along with the Law of God they are also breaking social laws of the community."

Which community? At which point in history?

Gaz:

"Any person that is such a slave to the desires of the flesh that they are willing to break such laws can in no way inherit the kingdom of God."

Ok. That's me. And I'm fine with that since I don't believe in god, anyway. But what I want to know is the answer to the question I started with: Where does that leave us? In other words, how then will you/should you interact with those whose beliefs/actions run counter to "the Plan of Salvation?"

A side queery to the above is: is the "vulgarity" you describe above enough to prohibit someone being baptized Mormon after they're dead? If so, how is this known? If not, then, presuming they accept the gospel in spririt prison which of course they will because by that time they will know Mormonism is true, aren't they then covered by the Plan of Salvation?" In which case, why the heck does it matter?
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Blixa

Post by _Gazelam »

Ignorance of history and ignorance of personal experience with the wide range of people, including myself, who would be classified as "perverts" under such general and vague classificiation.


You act like I don't know any Gay people. I know a few, I spent some time with a celebrity whose home I installed air conditioning in. His boyfriend thought it was funy to come out to the job site and walk around naked. We just packed up our things and left wehen he did this. We stopped associating with this couple when asked to do a service call on their gymnasiam A/C and saw pictures on the wall of grown men posing naked with little boys. My father stopped and told them he wasn't going to finish the service call and that they were not to call him again.

I like the music of Queen and Elton John, but that doesent mean I'd ever want to go hang out with them. Freddie Mercury may have been an amazing singer, but his personal life was of such a nature that it would make a goat puke.

Why? Is it because gay men bother you more? Why is that?


Because I respect women.

This explains to me the entirely ahistorical slant of your posts---in some sense, belief in the End of History makes historical knowledge impossible. At least that thought just occured to me, and I have to thank you for helping me see this. I'll have to work this idea out some more, but I think it may just be a significant concept for my current project, which among other things takes up the literary genre of Historical Fiction. (And truthfully, this may not be such a big insight, I'll need to see if this point is made by other critical philosophers of religion/christianity.)


How can you say I ignore history? I understand perfectly well that homosexuality has been around since the days of Adam and Eve. There is apocryphal scriptural reference to orgies taking place in the cities of the valley, tempting the people that Seth was serving as a prophet. Homosexual activity is a byproduct of rejecting christianity, because once God is out of the picture persoanl morals shift with the fashion of the day. Just because there is historical precedence, doesent make it any more acceptable.

Which community? At which point in history?


Any moral community at any point in time.

Where does that leave us? In other words, how then will you/should you interact with those whose beliefs/actions run counter to "the Plan of Salvation?"


Where that leaves us is my trying to get you to understand your ultimate potential and to reject the perverted views of the world. I can quote scripture to you all day, and show you from scripture how God has dealt with his stray children in the past, but until you are willing to pray and ask God how he feels, and are willing to recognize and follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, my words will mean nothing to you. If I remember correctly you stated that you were a member of the church, baptised when you were young. You have the gift of the Holy Ghost, but you need to learn to follow his promptings. Are you willing to find out if God is real?

Its the sin of being unchaste that's the problem, not the sinner. Like I said, I like Freddie Mercury, I just didn't like how he spent his private time. Which leads to your next question

A side queery to the above is: is the "vulgarity" you describe above enough to prohibit someone being baptized Mormon after they're dead? If so, how is this known? If not, then, presuming they accept the gospel in spririt prison which of course they will because by that time they will know Mormonism is true, aren't they then covered by the Plan of Salvation?" In which case, why the heck does it matter?


Baptism for the dead is for those who died without an opportunity in this life of learnign about Christ and living by his teachings. That being said, everyone is expected to live according to the truths they know. If a person goes out of this life seeking to improve their virtue and help others grow, then they wil continue in that state. Going from this world to the next is simply stepping through a door. You are the same person there you are here. If a person goes out of this life living a sinful life, they will continue to have those same desires and nature in the next. They will go to the place prepared for those who are unwilling to make covenants and who rebel against God and virtue. A baptism for the dead does not save them unless they accept the work and live according to the promises made at baptism. A sinful person will not. The ordinance will have been performed but will naver have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Blixa
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

"How can you say I ignore history? I understand perfectly well that homosexuality has been around since the days of Adam and Eve."

This kind of proves my point, Gaz.

"You act like I don't know any Gay people. I know a few, I spent some time with a celebrity whose home I installed air conditioning in. His boyfriend thought it was funy to come out to the job site and walk around naked. We just packed up our things and left wehen he did this. We stopped associating with this couple when asked to do a service call on their gymnasiam A/C and saw pictures on the wall of grown men posing naked with little boys."

Yes, it doesn't sound like you know many if you think this experience is typical. I've met some heterosexuals like this, too, but I don't extend my experience of them to all hets.

"Freddie Mercury may have been an amazing singer, but his personal life was of such a nature that it would make a goat puke."

A friend of mine is writing a biography/critical work on Mercury so I've read quite a bit about him while helping proof and edit her work. A kinder, gentler soul would be hard to find. His life wasn't some sort of 24/7 orgy. Far from it. But, whatever.

"Homosexual activity is a byproduct of rejecting christianity, because once God is out of the picture persoanl morals shift with the fashion of the day."

Again with the history, Gaz. Same gender sex predates Christianity.

"Where that leaves us is my trying to get you to understand your ultimate potential... until you are willing to pray and ask God how he feels, and are willing to recognize and follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, my words will mean nothing to you. If I remember correctly you stated that you were a member of the church, baptised when you were young. You have the gift of the Holy Ghost, but you need to learn to follow his promptings. Are you willing to find out if God is real?"

I never believed Gaz. Honestly. I never found anything in prayer that was any different than talking to the air. And I wouldn't want to serve a God who created a world of such piercing beauty and then called it ugly. I'm not a sexual mystic (although there are religions which privilege sex as a means to attain the divine) but some of the most meaningful, beautiful and transcendant experiences I've had have been found in intense bodily communion and communication. Even so, I'm far more intellectual than sensualist, more's the pity.

But thanks for taking the time to respond. Its always useful to read about how someone else views things, even if the result is a kind of sad stalemate.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Yes, it doesn't sound like you know many if you think this experience is typical. I've met some heterosexuals like this, too, but I don't extend my experience of them to all hets.


Good point. His partner you wouldent even be able to tell was Gay unless he told you. And yes theres straight men who are just as crude and ugly, I see them at work all the time. Here in Vegas its common for prostitutes to hand out "bussiness" cards where they display themselves in some vulgar contortionist pose. Some guys like to collect them and plaster them al over the inside of their tool-bins. I would say this is roughly the same type of behavior. Both are in violation of the law of chastity.

A friend of mine is writing a biography/critical work on Mercury so I've read quite a bit about him while helping proof and edit her work. A kinder, gentler soul would be hard to find. His life wasn't some sort of 24/7 orgy. Far from it. But, whatever.


Your correct, I shouldent base my opinion on just the long running competition he had with the drummer over who could gross out the other sexually. I think in his later life he calmed down just a little and did some nice charity work, but that period where he was really "out there" tends to overshadow alot of the more tender moments.

Again with the history, Gaz. Same gender sex predates Christianity.


Nothing predates Christianity. Sice it was Christ who formed the earth, your point is moot.

I'm not a sexual mystic (although there are religions which privilege sex as a means to attain the divine) but some of the most meaningful, beautiful and transcendant experiences I've had have been found in intense bodily communion and communication.


Sexual relations between a married couple are meant to be just as you say. It is these unions outside of a covenant relationship that are destructive and damning.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Blixa
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

Sorry forgot the Christ = Jehovah thing. You know I NEVER picked up on that in Sunday School!! I only read about it recently while reading BBS discussions.

I was floored. It still makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

But, nevermind. I don't think any of this exists and it makes no difference in how I live my life if it does or it doesn't. So its all moot more or less at this point.

Thanks again. If I'm in Vegas any time soon, I promise not to contort myself in public. ; )
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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