No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

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_Coggins7
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No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

Post by _Coggins7 »

You cannot possibly even understand the concept of "intellectual discipline," since you do not hold a college degree.



This was meant by Scratch to be, of course, another slur against my intelleigence and background, but that's not why I'm starting a new thread regarding it.

I'm just wondering what others here thinking of this concept; the concept of credentialism which says that if one has not been to college or university, one cannot have a deep, advanced, or substantive knowledge of anything and should be ignored out of hand. Now obviously, some things, like the natural and hard sciences, medicine, and practical matters such as the construction trades, require hands on experience, field work, and laboratory work. But why, for example, could one not be an expert on seventeenth century French literature, or Greek mythology, or LDS history, or political economy, or various theories and modalities of modern psychotherapy, or New Testament textual studies, simply by reading, studying, and digesting the relevant knowledge in that area?

One wouldn't have the credential, and so one wouldn't be a professional in that area, but how would this affect one's having expertise in it?

Does anybody know, by the way, what advanced degrees or academic background Scratch has such that he must frame all his disagreements with me in terms of me being a "hick", a "rube" and generally, a dunce? I've had two years of formal college and twenty five of sustained, informal college (combined with an ever decreasing diet of TV, movies, entertainment in general). I am planning to return to college this year, and work toward an advanced degree in, at the moment, political science, with a minor in western philosophy. This, however, doesn't imply that I couldn't learn the very same stuff on my own. I could, and probably right here in my own study with the personal library I have now. But I'd like the credential for various reasons.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

I'm not going to wade into the back and forth of contention here, but I would like to say good for you for going back to school. That's very commendable, and I wish you well in your studies. I started out in Political Science and ended up with degrees in English and Latin American Studies.

Sometimes I think I'd like to go back and do a Ph.D., but there's that pesky problem of having to earn money to support a large family.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Thanks
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

The benefits of college:

1) The experience of dealing with ideas and the perceptions of ideas that are different from views ones self holds (in Cogs case his views on things would always be coloured by his upbringing and so forth (not good or bad...just the way things are)...in college you are bombarded with ideas from many different viewpoints and may find a new way of looking at something that couldn't be deciphered by reading books.

2) Being credited through independent testing in classes (which is sort of like a proto-peer review)...you're being taught by people who themselves have been credited through their own testing sessions (PH.D program or graduate school)...they can help with #1....giving ideas and points of view that you may not get due to your own flaws.

3) The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how many books you read or how many things you learn, college gives you more points of view through teachers and other students, which help alter your points of view....you also learn more correct methodologies and how to appraise sources and materials, rather than believing everything you take in through your 5 senses (I really learned this point about appraising sources for authenticity and objectivity).

That's all I got right now.....
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Mister Scratch
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Re: No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:
You cannot possibly even understand the concept of "intellectual discipline," since you do not hold a college degree.



This was meant by Scratch to be, of course, another slur against my intelleigence and background, but that's not why I'm starting a new thread regarding it.

I'm just wondering what others here thinking of this concept; the concept of credentialism which says that if one has not been to college or university, one cannot have a deep, advanced, or substantive knowledge of anything and should be ignored out of hand. Now obviously, some things, like the natural and hard sciences, medicine, and practical matters such as the construction trades, require hands on experience, field work, and laboratory work. But why, for example, could one not be an expert on seventeenth century French literature, or Greek mythology, or LDS history, or political economy, or various theories and modalities of modern psychotherapy, or New Testament textual studies, simply by reading, studying, and digesting the relevant knowledge in that area?

One wouldn't have the credential, and so one wouldn't be a professional in that area, but how would this affect one's having expertise in it?


That was precisely my point, Loran. You are confusing the term "expertise" with "discipline"/"professionalism." Just look at your recent exchange with gknowlton. Now, I could be mistaken, and you guys could have a history that I'm unaware of, but it seemed to me that you leapt right into your belittling comments about his intelligence, moral scruples, etc. That is not a sign of discipline or professionalism---by any measure---and it only reinforces my (and Bond's, apparently) sense that you lack this stuff on account of your never having completed college.

Does anybody know, by the way, what advanced degrees or academic background Scratch has such that he must frame all his disagreements with me in terms of me being a "hick", a "rube" and generally, a dunce? I've had two years of formal college and twenty five of sustained, informal college (combined with an ever decreasing diet of TV, movies, entertainment in general). I am planning to return to college this year, and work toward an advanced degree in, at the moment, political science, with a minor in western philosophy.


If you approach academic discourse in the same spirit in which you post here, you are in for a rude awakening, and a lot of "C-"s on your papers, if not worse.

This, however, doesn't imply that I couldn't learn the very same stuff on my own. I could, and probably right here in my own study with the personal library I have now. But I'd like the credential for various reasons.


I, too, commend you for going back. But I worry that you are too old, and too set in your ways, for you to absorb any of the tendencies I have been alluding and referring to for so long vis-a-vis you and your posts. But, we'll see. Perhaps the folks at---where? U. of South Car.?---can teach an old dog new tricks after all.
_The Nehor
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Re: No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

Post by _The Nehor »

Mister Scratch wrote:That was precisely my point, Loran. You are confusing the term "expertise" with "discipline"/"professionalism." Just look at your recent exchange with gknowlton. Now, I could be mistaken, and you guys could have a history that I'm unaware of, but it seemed to me that you leapt right into your belittling comments about his intelligence, moral scruples, etc. That is not a sign of discipline or professionalism---by any measure---and it only reinforces my (and Bond's, apparently) sense that you lack this stuff on account of your never having completed college.


Have you sat down and listened to some college faculty discuss the tactics they've used and had used against them to get ahead? They can make this board look incredibly civilized if you dig under the veneer of civility. With livelihood riding on it gets tense but the amount of childishness I saw was insane. A lot of what Covey would have called Lose/Lose tactics.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Coggins:

Don't let Scratch needle you about college degrees. He doesn't have one, either.

rcrocket
_rcrocket

Re: No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

Post by _rcrocket »

Mister Scratch wrote:That was precisely my point, Loran. You are confusing the term "expertise" with "discipline"/"professionalism." Just look at your recent exchange with gknowlton. Now, I could be mistaken, and you guys could have a history that I'm unaware of, but it seemed to me that you leapt right into your belittling comments about his intelligence, moral scruples, etc. That is not a sign of discipline or professionalism---by any measure---and it only reinforces my (and Bond's, apparently) sense that you lack this stuff on account of your never having completed college.


What is the internet convention for rolling one's eyes?

rcrocket
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

rcrocket wrote:Coggins:

Don't let Scratch needle you about college degrees. He doesn't have one, either.

rcrocket


Well, you are right about that. I don't have "one."
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Mister Scratch wrote:
rcrocket wrote:Coggins:

Don't let Scratch needle you about college degrees. He doesn't have one, either.

rcrocket


Well, you are right about that. I don't have "one."


As I thought. Quit making fun of folks' lack of education. It becomes you.

rcrocket
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