The Demise of Godwin's Law on MAD?

[_Mister Scratch]

On the old version of this very MB, I once began a thread intended to examine some of the historical ties between the LDS Church and the Nazi party, and it led me to wonder if the, draconian "Godwin's Law" which was wielded with iron fist on the old, ironically named FAIRboard, had to do with the fact that, yes, in fact, the Brethren (or at least some of them) were, in fact, Nazi sympathizers. In other words, "Scotty Dog" Gordon and others at FAIR needed Godwin's Law in order to try and stave off the very legitimate charge that LDS leaders respected, admired, or sympathized with National Socialism.

Anyways, there is a terrific thread underway on the fittingly named MADboard that explores a number of these issues. Here is a great post from Phaedrus UT:

On December 9, 1933 The LDS Church News Published a article called "Mormonism in The New Germany". The article showed all of the common parallels "between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists." (National Socialists=Nazi)

First, Nazis have introduced "Fast Sunday." Second, "it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. Finally, due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one's grandmother was not a Jewess, there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism."

In the 1936 LDS Church News there is a photo of LDS basketball team in Germany giving "Sieg Heil: salute of Nazi Party"

Here is another pair of invaluable quotes from Nevo:

The policy of the National Socialists towards the sects covered the spectrum from total persecution, suffered by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, through the intermittent harassment experienced by the Christian Scientists, the New Apostolic and Seventh Day Adventist Churches, to the toleration enjoyed by the Mormons, whose existence was, for practical purposes, ignored. . . .

All the sects were observed [by the secret police] and all, except the Mormons, appear regularly in police and S.D. reports. Some were more suspect than others, and it has been seen that the government’s attitude to each sect was determined only partly by the sect’s response to National Socialism, and largely by the political influence its members were able to exert on their own behalf. That the Mormons had convinced the government from the start of the regime of the political and economic importance of their membership to the German state and of their influence outside Germany, may help to explain the ease with which this sect came through the years of Nazi rule."

-- Christine King, The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity (New York: Edwin Mellen Press, 1983), 181-83.

The U.S. ambassador noted in his diary on July 31, 1934: 'Hitler has not dissolved [the Mormons'] organizations or expelled their active preachers. There are other than religious aspects to Hitler's let-up on the Mormons.' American-born Mormon missionaries' skill at basketball brought them favor in Nazi eyes, and four of them were asked to referee basketball games at the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin. The Mormon ardor for genealogy also gave them a certain standing with Nazis. . . .

With the start of the war, the Mormon headquarters in the United States withdrew all its missionaries from Europe. . . . Thomas E. McKay, European president of the Latter-day Saints, was among the last of the 697 missionaries to return. On landing in New York in March 1940, he expressed his regret at leaving Europe and stated: 'The Mormons have never been molested in Germany. We could not ask for better treatment. The only way the Nazis have affected our work is that our Boy Scout movement has been curtailed by the Hitler Youth movement.' The withdrawal of the missionaries from Europe, however, saved the Mormons from many wartime difficulties. In Germany they were among the few small sects which were not banned or dissolved, being accorded a treatment similar to that enjoyed by the Methodists and Baptists.

The Mormons, like other Germans, supported the war effort, and some of their leaders were strong supporters of the Nazi party. One deacon of Jewish descent was sent to the Theresienstadt concentration camp; other partly Jewish members in Hamburg were left unmolested. . . . On the whole, Mormons suffered no special discrimination and persecution."

-- Ernst Christian Helmreich, The German Churches under Hitler: Background, Struggle, and Epilogue (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1979), 404-405.

All very, very interesting. I am quite surprised that the mods have not shut down the thread yet.

[_The Nehor]

I'm not surprised they left the LDS Church alone. The Church had a lot of influence in the United States (and to a lesser extent, England). Hitler's original policies he laid out in Mein Kampf called for the destruction of Poland and an eventual war with Russia to carve out living space. Hitler never wanted war with England or France and was shocked when they got so upset over Poland. Persecuting a Church with a strong central authority in the United States would affect things politically. The other Church's were much more toothless in Nazi eyes. Jehovah's Witness's wouldn't get involved in any way as a matter of doctrine.

I do hate that our genealogical data was taken for such perverse uses.

I wouldn't hang a dog on the 1933 Church News article. It sounds similar to the modern Ensign articles about how the Church is prospering in some obscure locale. They usually bore me to be honest and I stopped reading them years ago.

This would be my sarcastic response to many of them: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28470

I don't think the LDS leadership were all closet Nazis. It seems to be an enduring trait of some LDS to seek out similarities amongst all people which is good as far as it goes. Thus praising Hitler for keeping the Word of Wisdom didn't seem odd. I remember being show an old article by an LDS talking about how great Mussolini's regime was.

[_Mister Scratch]

I'm not surprised they left the LDS Church alone. The Church had a lot of influence in the United States (and to a lesser extent, England). Hitler's original policies he laid out in Mein Kampf called for the destruction of Poland and an eventual war with Russia to carve out living space. Hitler never wanted war with England or France and was shocked when they got so upset over Poland. Persecuting a Church with a strong central authority in the United States would affect things politically. The other Church's were much more toothless in Nazi eyes. Jehovah's Witness's wouldn't get involved in any way as a matter of doctrine.

I do hate that our genealogical data was taken for such perverse uses.

And yet LDS continue to disregard (albeit perhaps accidentally) Jewish requests that baptisms for the dead not be performed.

I wouldn't hang a dog on the 1933 Church News article. It sounds similar to the modern Ensign articles about how the Church is prospering in some obscure locale. They usually bore me to be honest and I stopped reading them years ago.

This would be my sarcastic response to many of them: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28470

I don't think the LDS leadership were all closet Nazis.

That certainly wasn't my point, and I don't think it was implicit in any of the remarks. The point (at least in my view) is that there are some unfortunate parallels between the Church and the Nazi party.

It seems to be an enduring trait of some LDS to seek out similarities amongst all people which is good as far as it goes. Thus praising Hitler for keeping the Word of Wisdom didn't seem odd. I remember being show an old article by an LDS talking about how great Mussolini's regime was.

One has to wonder, in the end, if the praise is really and truly aimed at very small things such as Hitler's adherence to the Wow, or whether the praise is really gesturing towards and implicit approval on the part of Church leaders of the totalitarianism that had been achieved by these Axis Power rulers.

[_Dr. Shades]

Okay, this MUST be said:

Mister Scratch, do you own a copy of D. Michael Quinn's The Mormon Heirarchy: Extensions of Power? If not, there's an appendix which lists, chronologically, interesting Mormonism snippets which didn't fit into the rest of the book.

During the 1933-1945 period, there are several damning pro-Nazi quotes from church luminaries, especially J. Reuben Clark, who (going from memory) stated things like "the rumors about Nazi excesses are blown out of proportion, don't believe them" and praise for the way Germany "handles" the Jews.

Maybe I'll go through my copy and look for a few.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Many of the churches in Germany were subsumed into the German Christian Church, later named the Reich Church, headed by a friend of Hitler. Among other things, they did away with the Old Testament (because of its Jewish origins) and replaced the crosses with swastikas. Only Nazi-approved speakers were permitted to preach. They eventually also replaced the podium Bibles with copies of Mein Kampf. The awful truth is that most German Christians put up little or no resistance. The Church in Germany was thoroughly indoctrinated with a theology of submission to secular authorities, a remnant of the old notion of the "divine right" of kings. There was, however, an underground church established called the Confessing Church. Its founders included Karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, both very important names in the history of Protestant theology. I was surprised to learn that the Confessing Church was instrumental in advancing the Ecumenical Movement. Perhaps it was because they sought support from Christians outside the borders of Germany. The Roman Catholic Church certainly wasn't very forthcoming in providing said support, which meant that Christians in Germany had to look to Protestant brothers and sisters abroad for any kind of encouragement whatsoever.

http://www.ucc.org/faith/barmen.htm

[_The Nehor]

I'm not surprised they left the LDS Church alone. The Church had a lot of influence in the United States (and to a lesser extent, England). Hitler's original policies he laid out in Mein Kampf called for the destruction of Poland and an eventual war with Russia to carve out living space. Hitler never wanted war with England or France and was shocked when they got so upset over Poland. Persecuting a Church with a strong central authority in the United States would affect things politically. The other Church's were much more toothless in Nazi eyes. Jehovah's Witness's wouldn't get involved in any way as a matter of doctrine.

I do hate that our genealogical data was taken for such perverse uses.

And yet LDS continue to disregard (albeit perhaps accidentally) Jewish requests that baptisms for the dead not be performed.

I wouldn't hang a dog on the 1933 Church News article. It sounds similar to the modern Ensign articles about how the Church is prospering in some obscure locale. They usually bore me to be honest and I stopped reading them years ago.

This would be my sarcastic response to many of them: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28470

I don't think the LDS leadership were all closet Nazis.

That certainly wasn't my point, and I don't think it was implicit in any of the remarks. The point (at least in my view) is that there are some unfortunate parallels between the Church and the Nazi party.

It seems to be an enduring trait of some LDS to seek out similarities amongst all people which is good as far as it goes. Thus praising Hitler for keeping the Word of Wisdom didn't seem odd. I remember being show an old article by an LDS talking about how great Mussolini's regime was.

One has to wonder, in the end, if the praise is really and truly aimed at very small things such as Hitler's adherence to the Wow, or whether the praise is really gesturing towards and implicit approval on the part of Church leaders of the totalitarianism that had been achieved by these Axis Power rulers.

The Jewish Baptism issue has been argued endlessly and I have nothing new to add.

There are what you would term unfortunate parallels between any two organizations you can pick. The Methodist Church has similarities to the KKK. Al-Qaeda has similarities to the Democratic Party. The American Public School System has similarities to Guantanamo. I picked these at random and could off the top of my head come up with at least 3 similarities between each of them. I don't put a lot of stock in perceived similarities.

Since the article only identified the parallels of genealogy, the Word of Wisdom, and the institution of a fast I don't see how you can make the leap to approval of totalitarianism. That's really reading between the lines beyond what is warranted.

[_Mister Scratch]

The Jewish Baptism issue has been argued endlessly and I have nothing new to add.

There are what you would term unfortunate parallels between any two organizations you can pick. The Methodist Church has similarities to the KKK. Al-Qaeda has similarities to the Democratic Party. The American Public School System has similarities to Guantanamo. I picked these at random and could off the top of my head come up with at least 3 similarities between each of them. I don't put a lot of stock in perceived similarities.

I think you will have to elaborate on these a bit more in order for your point to hold any water, Nehor.

Since the article only identified the parallels of genealogy, the Word of Wisdom, and the institution of a fast I don't see how you can make the leap to approval of totalitarianism. That's really reading between the lines beyond what is warranted.

I disagree. Both the Church and systems such as Nazism contain features of totalitarianism. Some of these include:
---Bloc voting (or no real "voting" at all)
---Insistent attempts to control information and representation (i.e., propaganda/agitprop)
---Monitoring of citizens/members behavior and publications

Even the art one finds, in the Book of Mormon, for example, bears a strong resemblance to the muscle-bound figures in Stalin-era Russian propaganda art. These parallels are not just "random," Nehor.